[Atlas667]

I dont defend mass executions or even the mistakes of communism. Mismanagement and murder is inexcusable. But i do not see them as inherent to socialism, but as product of their times.

Conveniently you dont mention any of the mass executions caused by capitalism?

All the wars, all the covert operations, all the murderous and genocidal dictatorships, two world wars?

Knowing full well a sitting US president critiqued the military industrial complex as a capitalist threat.

Capital is even responsible for on going genocides.

You know well I do not advocate for mass murder.

I am advocating for mass democracy and the only way to acheive that permanently is through democratized production. I am advocating for progress and for an end of using base material needs for profits.

[spwa4]

> Conveniently you dont mention any of the mass executions caused by capitalism?

Such as? Oh wait, this is where you blame a communist massacre, like say the many ones committed in Cuba, on the pressure a capitalist state put on those poor, defenseless, communist warlords. Che Guevara!

It's like saying Iranian revolution was caused by capitalism (the oil companies), when of course the actual organizing, the starting of the revolution itself, and even a few massacres were executed by communists (yes, the most famous one was khomeini, however, that does not mean there were no others). Those poor massacring communists had no choice! They were forced to massacre by the pressure of the oil companies, who had a party in the desert! That just left them no choice at all. And then they just happened to bring a dictator to power, completely by accident! Victims!

(btw: in the Iranian case, if you kill to bring a dictator to power, that this dictator then proceeds to kill you does not make you innocent, or any less of a murderer, it just makes you a stupid dead murderer, who allied himself with a better murderer, and you dragged yourself into death and 10s of millions of people into 50 years of misery out of, let's face it, jealousy. THAT is what communism brought to Iran. Oh and Afghanistan was worse)

> You know well I do not advocate for mass murder.

Yes you do. That's what communism is: you replace money with a threat "do what the state plans for you to do or ..."

Since it is in almost everyone's best interest to NOT do what the state planned (because otherwise there would be no difference between capitalism and communism) you need to actually apply the threat. And any threat devolves into killing, after X steps, in some percentage of cases. X differs, the percentage differs, but not the end result. And because the threat needs to be universal in communism, the percentage is going to be large in practice.

> I am advocating for progress and for an end of using base material needs for profits.

No you are advocating for a planned economy and are refusing to think about any practical aspects of that. You are no different from an inquisitor or a taliban executioner who "protects" the people, but you can't see it because your cause is righteous.

[Atlas667]

Damn, dude. Dont embarass yourself. You have no idea what socialism is.

If you dont know of any murderous actions on behalf of transnational capitalist entities and states I suggest you read any modern history.

From the invasions and massacres in my own country, to 2 world wars, to colonialism, to dissappearances all across sotuh america, to outright murder of democratically elected presidents.

Did you know drug cartels are capitalist entities as well? They extort, murder and traffick for profits extracted by labor.

I gave you countless examples that you discard. I gave you accurate narratives to world events you were weaponizing. And I've explained how socialism has nothing to do with "government" control and murder.

The facts of my support is that I think the only way to permanent mass democracy is democratized production. That's all. That's socialism.

To you capitalism is an abstract idea you conflate with freedom. To you socialism is murder and dictatorship.

I suggest you reanalyze your concepts.

[spwa4]

> Did you know drug cartels are capitalist entities as well? They extort, murder and traffick for profits extracted by labor.

Ah so you go for big sounding well-known problems, that kill 0.01% of the average socialist state then? Seen that argument too. And I'll show you the problem. They are serious problems ... but not compared to a small socialist problem, say Venezuela. The Venezuelan state is socialist, does what you suggest.

To stay directly in your argument: it turned out they work and support drug cartels. So your presenting of socialism as either the opposite or a solution to drug cartels is very disingenuous.

[Atlas667]

Nearly all the countries that support cartels are capitalists.

Venezuela is a progressive reformist state with many many capitalists. The reason why its considered a rogue state in your capitalist media is that it wont play ball with the american capitalist block/cartel.

Drugs could be made a legal industry in order to end the drug crisis. But drug cartels preserve regulation-less profits. Its literally billions they save by avoiding legality and taxation.

[spwa4]

Finally, here we are "that's not real socialism, my version is much better". I would like to point out that EVEN NOW marxists don't see any reason to disavow Chavez.

> Venezuela is a progressive reformist state ...

That's not how Chavez grabbed power and amassed billions. Not at all.

Chavez, the billionnaire drug-cartel supporter, hero of marxist communism. If it didn't destroy so many lives it'd be a sickening joke. Then again, people still see Arafat or Guevara as heroes of communism too, and compared to them Chavez is ... well, a lot smarter, but at least in Chavez's case I'd be reluctant to call him a mass murderer, whereas Arafat and Guevara definitely are mass murderers. Arafat was a billionnaire when he died too.

https://marxist.com/chavez-capitalism-transcended-socialism....