[vimredo]

For Linux to gain 5% marketshare, I really doubt it "barely works" on a "limited set of hardware that it was designed for". It can run headless on basically anything better than a Pentium, and it mostly just works on average hardware (except fingerprint sensors and Nvidia). I've had no problem with Linux on all my hardware, and I have a feeling the last time you looked at it was 2013.

[ruszki]

Linux didn’t work reliably on my laptops in the past 10 years. And I mean basic things, like booting up, or showing a desktop without serious glitches. And all the time problems were non deterministic, and printing just generic unhelpful “something is wrong” errors, if there were any. I try it every year, whether the situation is better, and in the past 25 years, the answer is that barely. Yes, you can have terminal with very basic settings almost every time, but if you want anything more, even just like proper resolution, then it’s still a lottery. The interesting thing is that before that I was luckier, I could hack Linux to many things (I would definitely not say “install”).

And of course like in the past decades any time, you can always use Linux in VMs. Very reliably. So I stick to that.

[fsflover]

> Linux didn’t work reliably on my laptops in the past 10 years. And I mean basic things, like booting up, or showing a desktop

Which laptops? Do they all have Nvidia graphics? This is really vague. Your comment is not helpful, and it just looks like usual Linux bashing from people who don't know what they're talking about.

[ruszki]

And how it would be helpful for me to specify? Do you think that I just gave up immediately, and didn’t try to solve it for days and weeks? Do you think you can help me more than that without the exact errors which I got? Do you think I care about a solution to laptops which I don’t even have? Do you think any kind of blanket term like “NVIDIA whatever doesn’t work” would be even true?

I specified a few times, and I got zero relevant information. My time is more valuable than reading comments which are like “it worked for me with <something-which-is-not-even-in-my-spec>”.

[soco]

FWIW I have Mint on two grandparents laptops and I agree with the parent comment. I gave up doing any updates on them, I just wipe off everything once a year and reinstall from scratch. Even though it's only browser and music player and nobody touches the settings (unless there was a misclick) yet still last time the desktop came to show through the application windows so I had to wipe it again and lo it worked.

[fsflover]

1. You didn't name the laptops just like the OP.

2. It seems you're using hardware designed for Windows. It's like trying to install Windows on a Macbook: You're on your own here. Don't blame Microsoft or Apple for your issues.

[hju22_-3]

You know, reading through your replies in this thread is kind of just sad. You selectively pick only tiny parts of comments to reply to, while ignoring the points that are made and the plethora of very, very common issues highlighted.

Sadly, it's also a very expected answer from someone who probably likes Linux a lot. No matter what argument is made, no matter what examples or proof are included, irregardless of the number of such things, it's all just user error in the end.

When the argument is that Linux only _properly_ supports a small subset of devices for _desktop computing,_ and the counter-argument is that it does, yet a person mentions very, very incredibly common issues . . . Is the proper response to say, to effect, you're the one at fault by not using the right hardware? No, no it's not. Given that so, so, _so_ many experience these kinds of basic UX problems means that either Linux doesn't actually properly support a lot of different hardware (despite what many obsessed Linux users screech/preach) or it supports them perfectly fine and the tons upon tons upon tons of people who experience these issues are all the ones at fault and in no way, shape or form does Linux lack from a well known general UX problem.

Even worse is this, honestly, moronic take:

> 2. It seems you're using hardware designed for Windows. It's like trying to install Windows on a Macbook: You're on your own here. Don't blame Microsoft or Apple for your issues.

If I wasn't before convinced that you aren't completely out of touch, I am now. The primary subject of _desktop_ users _are_ Windows users with Windows machines. Goodness gracious, I honestly do not understand this take. Most of Linux's not-always-optimal desktop hardware support comes from a plethora of formerly Windows machines.

It's honestly just so weird to argue that installing Linux on a Windows machine is in any way shape or form as bad as installing it on a Mac.

Even more, Linux-only devices, as in Linux-first devices, are more of a newer thing. There have been initiatives before, that have fallen through or not gained a lot of traction. It's not until relatively recently that companies making Linux-first devices for _desktop_ computing became a real thing. And even then, the Steam Deck blows them out of the water by mostly _removing_ the desktop-part of Linux and replacing it with a homebrewed one. Although you can still use a regular desktop "mode." And yet, even with such companies, Windows machines stand for a massive section of the Linux desktop computing userbase.

Ironically, this is exactly the kind of argument I'd expect from an obsessed and out of touch Linux user. Because it makes no sense, disregards the points other potential users make and doesn't even properly address them.

[fsflover]

Thank you for an interesting, thoughtful reply.

> You selectively pick only tiny parts of comments to reply to

Yes, I nitpick on some smaller things when I know the poster is wrong on that matter (and I feel it's sufficiently important).

> while ignoring the points that are made and the plethora of very, very common issues highlighted

It doesn't mean I think there are no issues at all. Often I just don't have anything to add to them. Do I always have to say "it's true" to everything else? I never said "and therefore you're wrong about everything".

> Linux only _properly_ supports a small subset of devices for _desktop computing

This is true. However what you conclude from this may differ. It doesn't mean that Linux is a lost case and everybody should use Windows. It doesn't mean that companies can't switch to Linux. Very often they choose the hardware for the next upgrade and nothing prevents them from choosing a known supported hardware, however rare it could be.

Also, in every Linux thread there is always a large number of people with vague, unhelpful Linux bashing like "I'm trying Linux every other week and there are countless issues every single time". This is not actionable, it doesn't help anybody to choose the hardware. It's just a shallow dismissal, which is against the HN guidelines. I don't understand who upvotes that.

> Is the proper response to say, to effect, you're the one at fault by not using the right hardware?

This is not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that you should manage your expectations when using random hardware with a free OS. Not only the Linux developers weren't paid to support every hardware in world -- in many cases, the hardware vendors actively fight against this. Statistically, it must be a really large number of devices reliably working. How else could Linux reach >5% without anything sold in stores?

> either Linux doesn't actually properly support a lot of different hardware

Yes, this is the case.

> Even worse is this, honestly, moronic take

I stand by what I said. You can't demand any OS to work on every piece of hardware in the world; not even mega-corps can achieve that. You have to keep in mind the reality, otherwise this is a Nirvana fallacy. I would understand if someone said "I'm unlucky, Linux doesn't work on my hardware". Instead, they say "Linux barely works on a limited set of hardware that it was designed for" or "Linux on the desktop failed and will never succeed" (actual quotes from this discussion).

> The primary subject of _desktop_ users _are_ Windows users with Windows machines.

This is very true, and it's a sad state of affairs that for Linux to grow it has an impossible task of supporting all those different Windows machines. I recommend every Windows user to try installing Linux. At the same time, I do not guarantee that it will work, but there is a good chance. You will likely loose some features like suspend, but your machine will be faster, more secure, private and supported for the lifetime if you're lucky. Also you should be able to pay somebody to fix your problems, which will fix them for every other user. This is not true for proprietary software btw.

> It's honestly just so weird to argue that installing Linux on a Windows machine is in any way shape or form as bad as installing it on a Mac.

This is not what I said. I said that you're misplacing the responsibility here. The user should accept their responsibility for buying a "Windows-certified" hardware and not blame their problems on volunteers. They should thank the volunteer when it works and understand the reasons when it doesn't (and consider helping to fix the issues, too).

> And even then, the Steam Deck blows them out of the water

What are you talking about? Most users buy it as a separate device to play games, just like a console. It does help Linux to grow, but the comparison to Linux-first general-purpose devices doesn't seem relevant here.

[HumblyTossed]

Works reliably on mine. Windows 11 on the other hand, feels beta.

[bboygravity]

> I have a feeling the last time you looked at it was 2013.

I literally looked at it last week. Spent multiple days on it. Tried Mint and Zorin (full install, not just live).

This is on a brand new Lenovo p16s Gen 4 with AMD (no nvidia). That laptop didn't even exist before this year.

List of problems I encountered:

-- Multi touch not working (fixed by switching from Mint to Zorin, upgrading mainline kernel in Mint did not help).

-- External monitor not working (had to install display link drivers by going into terminal and running scripts and all of that other classic Linux usability) .

-- Hardware video acceleration not working (scrolling super slow, maps super slow, entire system super slow). Had to install AMD display drivers for that separately. Upgrading mainline kernel worked for Mint, but not for Zorin. Installing AMD drivers in Zorin involved downloading the drivers, !editting an install script that is part of the drivers! and then having an LLM guide me through the rest of the extremely elaborate process of installing the driver.

-- And to top it off, my classic pet peeve: there's no way to configure something as basic as scroll-lines (mouse scrollwheel speed) through a GUI in ANY of the distros. It involves installing imwheel, !writing a script!, setting the script to run on boot and then rebooting (and/or restarting the script).

So no. There's definitely no "it just works". Not even on a laptop that is supposed to have official HW vendor support for Ubuntu.

Also, I only ran it for like a day. I'm sure that I'll run into tons of other issues if I use it a bit longer.

Good for you and lucky you that you got it to work. But for most of us Linux is "nice try, but it's not finished yet" .

[fsflover]

> That laptop didn't even exist before this year.

Here's your problem. The hardware wasn't designed to run Linux and you gave Linux no time to fix the related problems. Try older hardware or wait.

[ForOldHack]

It works for me, said every Linux zelot ever. NVidia acceleration is horrid. The only thing that worked was directx on zorin. AMD? Only a few machines, even fewer models. What all the zelots we're running is built in Intel. "It works for me." Followed by bins by the truck full of unsupported hardware.

ThinkPads? Perfect every time? Dell? Have you configured you bios lately? Unsupported AMD? Grab your crayons on a race the old hardware will loose.

Linux has had 10 years to run on 10 year old hardware. Linux is not an OS. It's an attitude, and it's not a reflection on the technology, it's a reflection on the lowest common denominator.

Windows 10? I still have another 14 months left, and mass*.dev to thank.

Hardware that was built to run Linux? Drivers? If you have an AMD card and any interest in Linux, pull the card and prepare to trash the entire system, like the HP sitting on the sidewalk last night. Bye.

[fsflover]

> ThinkPads? Perfect every time? Dell?

System76, Purism, Taxedo, Pine64.

[bboygravity]

Which brings us back to my initial point: it only runs properly without fiddling on a tiny minority of very specific hardware by a tiny handful of vendors (who often ship to only a tiny portion of the globe).

[bboygravity]

To be clear: I got it to run eventually after hours/days of fiddling.

Do I like it after all this effort?

No.

But sure, I'll wait. I've waited for Linux to become truly user friendy for 3 decades and I really really want to love it, so I'll wait some more. No problem.

[hdjsbsbzbsbsb]

Running as a user where things need to work is not the same as being headless wherrle all you need is CLI access, disk and network ...

My lenovo p14s is a great linux laptop unless you want it to sleep (which it does!) It even wakes up! But 50% of the time the trackpad does not wake up properly ... Making hard to be used as a laptop that I can get things done on

[pjmlp]

Besides working with it on servers on regular basis, and having had enough with it on desktops and laptops since 1995, last year I managed to get a NUC, where Ubuntu, Red-Hat and SuSE weren't able to boot from the internal SSD or get along with UEFI, only booting from the external drive worked.

So yeah no problem, and yes I know should have gone to the usual forums asking everyone and their dog if someone before me had ever succeeded installing Linux on this brick.

[anthk]

I have different opinions. Try my NUC. Reinstall Windows 10 on it; you won't get audio support unless you get especial audio drivers from a shady download URL (usually used from pirating services) linked from the OEM vendors. Windows Update won't help. Neither SDI Tool Origin.

GNU/Linux works, HDMI output et all.

[Agingcoder]

Unless I’m mistaken windows 10 is end of life in 3 months so this shouldn’t be surprising ?

[anthk]

Barely no one uses Windows 11.

[Agingcoder]

I think about half of all desktop machines , since MS is pushing upgrades aggressively. Many corporate environments ( have already moved as well.

https://gs.statcounter.com/windows-version-market-share/desk...

[ForOldHack]

Nope. Win 10 is now a free year of support. All the way to Oct 2026. Thanks for pointing out mistakenly your mistaken. And is it surprising than hardware shills are pointing not pointing this out? You want Linux get a Thinkpad, and a mouse, and plan on replugging every time you wake. "It just works." Well guess what?

[Agingcoder]

Microsoft says it ends in October 2025.

What am I missing here ?

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-suppo...

[pjmlp]

I love how HN nowadays mirrors the Linux forums experience from phpBB and Slashdot days.

[anthk]

Because with NUCs if you dare to gasp reinstall the OEM OS, if the vendor it's gone, with Windows you might get a nice door stopper. You can get audio thru the headphones/speakers output, but that's a shitty experience for your living room.

With Windows 11 it will happen the same.

[knowitnone2]

then don't use it. Linux needs less people like you

[pjmlp]

And I don't, Android/Linux, WebOS/Linux and VMs are good enough.

If others have fun making it work, good for them, I have better ways to spend the rest of my life on this litte sphere.

As what Linux needs, I thought it needs every little user, to make a difference against Apple and Microsoft, after all we are always told that now is the year everyone is going to flee into Linux.

[Agingcoder]

Agreed - my view is that Linux on the desktop failed and will never succeed and its mostly alright since people have shifted their computing needs from desktops to phones.

So the market for personal computers has grown massively with phones entering it, and Linux has won here.

As to the general state of Linux usability - I’ve been using Linux since 1995, and professionally for more than 20 years - it’s great for professionally administered servers or workstations, less great for regular desktops / laptops where things pretty never work out of the box which is unfortunately not going to bring in extra users …

[bytehowl]

Linux may have won on phones, but free software did not, which is the thing that actually matters.

[Agingcoder]

That’s a different issue but you have a point esp since the Linux vs windows fight back then was essentially framed as proprietary vs free.