[jack_pp]

Remember the first time you touched a computer, the first game you ever played or the first little script you wrote that did something useful.

I imagine this is how a lot of people feel when using LLM's especially now that it's new.

It is the most incredible technology ever created by this point in our history imo and the cynicism on HN is astounding to me.

[latexr]

> It is the most incredible technology ever created by this point in our history imo and the cynicism on HN is astounding to me.

What astounds me is how proponents can so often be so rosy-eyed and hyperbolic, apparently without ever wondering if it may be them who are wrong. Or if maybe there is a middle ground. The people you are calling cynics are probably seeing you as naive.

LLMs are definitely not “the most incredible technology ever created by this point in our history”. That is hyperbolic nonsense in line with Pichai calling them “more profound than electricity and fire”. Listen to your words! Really consider what you’re saying.

[hnfong]

Unfortunately I think you've proven the GP's point at least on the cynicism part.

Unless you have something substantial to support your claim that `LLMs are definitely (emphasis yours) not “the most incredible technology ever created by this point in our history”.`

I mean, I personally think the jury is probably still out on this one, but as long as there's a non-zero chance of this being true, the "definitely" part could use some tempering.

PS: FWIW countering (perceived) hyperbolism with an equal but opposite hyberbolism just makes you as hyperbolic as the ones you try to counter.

[latexr]

> Unless you have something substantial to support your claim that

I expected it to be clear from my use of Pichai’s words for comparison that fire and electricity (you know, the thing without which LLMs can’t even function) are substantial obvious examples. For more, see the other replies on the thread. I didn’t think it necessary to repeat all the other obvious ideas like the wheel, or farming, or medicine, or writing, or…

[hnfong]

This is exactly the kind of cynicism that is borderline offensive. According to your logic, no new technology, however wonderful, could be considered more "incredible" than fire, electricity, farming, etc. because the "higher-tier" tech depends on them. This is akin to saying libc is the bestest software ever created (except the kernel which is even more bestest) because pretty much everything depends on it.

The interpretation I prefer is not to look at the dependency chart and keep dwelling at the basic dependencies, but rather to look at the possibilities opened up by the new tech. I'd rather have people be excited at the possibilities that LLMs potentially open up, than keep dwelling on how wonderful fire and electricity is.

I don't think you even disagree that LLMs are incredible tech and that people should be excited about them. I don't think you spend substantial time every day thinking about how great fire and electricity is. I think you're just somehow frustrated at how people are hyperbolic about them, and conjuring up arguments why they shouldn't be hyped up. When something exciting comes into the fray, understandably people (the general public) have a range of reactions, and if you keep focusing on the ones who are most hyped up about the new stuff and getting triggered by them, you're missing out on the reality that people actually have a wide range of responses and the median/average person aren't really that hyperbolic.

[ileonichwiesz]

Maybe it’s just psychology at work, but I see a huge difference between that time 15 years ago when I wrote my first useful script, and that time last week when an LLM spat out a piece of code to solve an issue I had.

The former made me so proud. My learning had paid off, and maybe there was nothing I couldn’t do. I had laid my pattern of thought onto the machine and made it do my bidding through sheer logic and focus. I had unlocked something special.

The latter was just OpenAI opaquely doing stuff for me while I watched a TV show in the background. No focus or logic was really necessary. I probably learned something from this, but not nearly as much as I could’ve if I actually read the docs and tried it myself.

I’ve also dabbled in art and design over the years, and I recognise this as the same difference as between painting something you’re truly proud of and asking Midjourney to generate you some images.

Then again, maybe that’s just how technological progress works. My great-great-grandmother was probably really proud and happy when she sewed and embroidered a beautiful shirt, but my shirts come from a store and I don’t really think about it.

[PeterStuer]

I have been involved with AI for over 40 years. I assure you anyone being shown a current frontier model in operation 10 years ago would have been blown off their socks.

Yet here we are. Rather than exploring this fantastic new tool, so many here are obsessed with pointing out flaws and shortcomings.

I get the angst of a world facing dramatic change. I don't get the denial and deliberate ignorance flaunted as somehow deep insight.

[lazide]

Sure. There is also still a massive chasm between those frontier models and what the hype is pushing too.

[PeterStuer]

Yes. There is also massive denial about what the societal impact will be of even current SoTA.

[lazide]

Agreed.

[zzzeek]

This thread is not about flaws and shortcomings. I use Claude code all the time, it's great, it's fun. But "the most incredible technology ever created by this point in our history" (OP quote, we assume "our history" means "human history", as opposed to "history of the past couple of years in the Valley-scape, sure), please. This is a delusional and dangerous point of view.

[latexr]

> Yet here we are. Rather than exploring this fantastic new tool, so many here are obsessed with pointing out flaws and shortcomings.

Now think about any technology you disapprove of, and imagine that defence: “We have just invented bombs and killer drones, yet rather than exploring these fantastic new tools, so many here are obsessed with pointing out flaws and shortcomings.”

> I get the angst of a world facing dramatic change.

Respectfully, I think you’re being too reductive. There are legitimate arguments and worries being exposed, it is not people being frightened simpletons afraid of change.

> I don't get the denial and deliberate ignorance flaunted as somehow deep insight.

Some of that always happens. But if that and fear of change are how you see the main tenets of the argument, I ask you to look at them more attentively and try to understand what you’re missing.

[PeterStuer]

I don't think I explained it well if that is what you get from it.

When I say 'I get the angst', I do not mean ungrounded fears. e.g. Captured regulation killing off open model creation and use and locking AI behind a few aligned actors making sure the tech's advantages go to the select few and their serves being one of them. When I say 'dramatic change' I do not mean dramatic as in a comedy play, but real deep societal impact with a significant chance of total turmoil.

What I tried to address is the dismissive 'reactionary' response of belittling and denying the technology itself, not just in some 'tech' circles, but almost endemic in academia. "It's nothing new", "just a 'stochastic parrot'", "just lossy compression", "just a parlor trick", "a useless hallucination merry-go-round", "another round of anthropomorphism for the gullible" etc. etc.

[latexr]

Thank you for the clarification. That did help to understand your specific complaints better.

[hansmayer]

Yes, the first time ever you have an interaction with them did indeed look magical and had something to it, wondering if these machines are passing the Turing test already. Alas, fast forward a few years, and many thousands of LoC generated by paid for 'latest and ever improving models', I was never more certain that the tools are unfortunately just statistical machines and the tail end of the 20+ years of machine learning, that is, learning how to guess outputs based on inputs. Yes you can quickly generate a scaffolding for an app. You can even do more than that, if you are very particular with your prompts. It can even sort-of stand in for the search engines we knew from before 2020s (unfortunately a sub-par replacement imho). But the key thing most of us complain about is that the returns are disproportionately small compared to the huge investments that have been made so far and even more that we have commitments for. More than 200B USD invested so far at least, for an industry generating < 15B revenue in 2024, how is that sound reasoning? How is that revolutionary? Hundreds of billions more promised, for what? So that lazy recruiters can generate job descriptions easier? Imagine the societal change we could have effected if that sort of money was invested in real problems. Hell, I'd propose even Mars colonisation would have been a more noble target then sinking in a trillion dollars over the next years into what? I would respect the VCs and GenAI crowd more if they realised that there may be some potential in the software-development field and focused effort just on that, as specialised field, as this is where we notably have some gains, notably also with a lot of crap to fix along the way. Instead they chose to push it as some kind of a B2C utility that everyone should use, probably aware of high disproportion between the investment and the return. They are desperate for the average Joe to learn to ask Gemini "oh no i spilled some sugar into my bowl, what should i do" - an actual commercial that was aired on TV. There is no cynicism, just evaluating the products realistically and seeing them what they are. The engineers were always the first to promote an innovative product - why are most of us not doing it now? Think about it.

[mistrial9]

no technology exists in a vacuum.. there is a sociology, needs matching, and pyramid of control involved.. more than that.

> cynicism on HN

lots of different replies on YNews, from very different people, from very different social-economic niches

[zzzeek]

You might want to read about a technology called "farming". Pretty sure as far as transformative incredible technologies, the ability for humans to create nourishment at global scale blows the pants off the text / image imitation machine

[hansmayer]

Or something called "Airplane", imagine being able to visit the remotest part of the Earth within 24h, it would have blown the socks off of our ancestors, wouldn't it? Also fairly remarkable compared to "I found the problem! I need to connect to the database before querying it...", "You're absolutely right, I forgot strings cannot be compared to numbers" etc

[xp84]

I think you’re probably right, but more because of erroneous categorization of what is a “technology.” We take for granted technology older than like 600 years ago (basically most people would say the printing press is a technology and maybe forget that the wheel and, indeed, crop cultivation). AI could certainly be in the top 3 most significant technologies of things developed since (inclusive) the printing press. We’ll likely find out just where it ends up within the decade.

[thaumasiotes]

> We take for granted technology older than like 600 years ago (basically most people would say the printing press is a technology and maybe forget that the wheel and, indeed, crop cultivation).

The printing press is more than 600 years old. It's more than 1200 years old.

[kqr]

I think this has less to do with age and more what we are taught. The printing press, steam engine, and the wheel were repeatedly drilled into me as world-changing technologies, so those are the ones I'd think of.

But there are more. Rope is arguably more important than the wheel. Their combination in pulleys to exchange force for distance still astound me, and is massively useful.

Writing lets us transmit ideas indirectly. While singing and storytelling lets ideas travel generations, they don't become part of the hypothetical global consciousness as immediately as with writing, which can be read and copied by anyone once written.

I'd put statistics in this bucket too, its invention being more recent than 600 years. Before that, we just didn't know how useful information is in aggregate. Faced with a table of data, we only ever looked up individual (hopefully representative) records in it.

[driscoll42]

To suggest another "simple" example, Air Conditioning. It made half the world vastly more livable, and now anywhere in the world you could work every day of the year, reduced deaths and disease. At least currently, AC has had a greater impact on humanity than AI has.

[xp84]

Whoops, I clearly erred there. I meant movable type, and Gutenberg in particular. And I was operating on a Eurocentric understanding as well.

[MangoToupe]

> It is the most incredible technology ever created by this point in our history imo and the cynicism on HN is astounding to me.

TBH, I still think LLMs have a long way to go to catch up to the technology of wikipedia, let alone the internet. LLMs at their peak are roughly a crappy form of an encyclopedia. I think the interactivity really warps peoples perspective to view it as more impressive, but it's difficult to piece together any value as a knowledge-store that is as impressive as clicking around the internet from 20 years ago. Wikipedia has preserved this value the best over the years. It's quite frustrating how quickly obviously LLM-generated content has managed to steal search results with super-verbose content that doesn't actually provide any value.

EDIT: I suppose the single use case of "there's some information I need to store offline but that won't be on wikipedia" is a reasonable case, but what does this even look like? I don't use LLMs like that so I can't provide an example.

Here's an example: I was trying to figure out details about applying to a visa last week in a certain country. I googled the problem I was having, and the top five results or so were pages that managed to split the description of the problem I was having into about 5 sections of text, and introduced the text indicating that there should be a solution (thereby looking to search results like I might find the solution if I clicked through), but didn't provide any actual content indicating how to approach the problem, let alone solve it. And, of course, this is driving revenue to some interest somewhere despite actively clogging up the internet.

Meanwhile, the actual answer was on another country's FAQ—presumably written by a human—on like page three of the search results.

At least old human-generated content would waste your time before answering your question, aka "why does this recipe have a 5000 word essay before the ingredient list and instructions" problem.

[KoolKat23]

But practically speaking they're probably way more valuable in the start from scratch scenario.

Wikipedia articles sometimes have a lot of jargon, making the information useless unless you have a prior understanding of the subject matter.