[sprremix]

> All the functionality attached to Firefox's "Browser tools" sub-menu should be unceremoniously ripped out, banished to the developer's edition.

I hope this is some kind of sarcastic take I am not getting. What a weird thing to stand for.

[Svip]

Yes; it's obvious you include the full context:

> Did you know there's already a special developer's edition? No web designer is building on Firefox first any more. We're lucky if they even test on it. All the functionality attached to Firefox's "Browser tools" sub-menu should be unceremoniously ripped out, banished to the developer's edition.

Though, it would be more plain, if they wrote "could" instead of "should".

[throw123xz]

What's the benefit for Firefox and its users if dev tools are removed from stable Firefox and "banished" to the Developer Edition?

Dev tools are part of all browsers. Even Safari, which tries to keep things very simple, ships dev tools on the stable version. I really don't see the point in removing them.

[lokar]

I have dealt with site outages where we have support talk customers through using the debug tools to help gather information.

They are very good to have available to everyone.

[baobun]

"Safety".

The thinking is that users are a danger to themselves and will be tricked by threat actors to add some CA cert to the trust store, paste commands into the js console, or download and sideload malicious extensions no matter what controls are in place so therefore these possibilities must be removed.

[jimjimwii]

Those same users will be tricked into downloading the "secure bowser" which has these tools. This is a nonsensical argument.

To this day, firefox is still the only browser that prevents its users from running custom extensions without Mozilla's blessing, likely motivated by the same garbage argument.

I have very little hope for Mozilla at this point and sincerely hope that they fail soon so that better open source browsers can take its place.

[The_SamminAter]

No, you can. In regular Firefox (without doing any shenanigans) the extension will be installed for the session (until the browser is closed), but Firefox Developer Edition lets you just install and run unsigned/invalid extensions (which is very useful if you occasionally have to change your clock back to 2018 and don’t want to lose all extensions).

[eadmund]

Why would anyone want to install another browser to use as a developer?

What the computing world needs is less separation of users and developers. Developers use programs all day, every day. And users should be able to write programs any time they wish. One of the most commonly used pieces of software in the world is a programming system: Excel.

One of my problems with iOS is the implicit assumption that users will not and should not extend the systems they use.

[webstrand]

What a strange take. I'm arguably a web designer, though its only one of many hats I wear. I design for Firefox first and then patch the places where chrome/safari break. If dev tools were only present on developer edition, which tracks the unreleased beta version, I wouldn't actually be able to test on Firefox that regular people are using.

[Liquix]

multiple people working on projects with web UIs at my org daily drive firefox. the author's arguments come off as hotheaded and poorly researched.

[MrDresden]

Even with the whole contex this did not read very clear to me.

[kgwxd]

As a developer who develops on Firefox, and only tests on other browsers just before deployment, I'd reconsider supporting it for end users if they're not going to be able to hit F12 to help me diagnose any issues that come up on their side.

[bauble]

It would be insanity. Even the most dedicated developers would switch to Chrome instantly.

[JohnBooty]

Well, that saved me a click on the article. This take is insane or a troll.

[deathanatos]

Some of TFA is more grounded. That particular paragraph though…

It exemplifies why beneficial change is so hard sometimes. The loudest voice in the room can go "here are the problems", we can all nod along in agreement, and then "and here's what we should do" … and it's just out there. I've seen this happen numerous times — borderline continuously — in politics.

Even ealier in the article, they (rightly, IMO) skewer Mozilla for laying off the Rust and Servo teams, but then TFA utterly undercuts its own thesis with,

> It shouldn't be trying to capitalize on [projects such as Rust or Servo].

What? What's the point of Rust, or Servo, then, if not to develop a better Firefox?

[JohnBooty]

    and it's just out there.

Yeah! Marx is the most extreme example of this in world history, probably. His critiques of capitalism are absolutely some of the truest words ever written. They are essential. They should be required reading for the entire human race, even for the most better-dead-than-red capitalist. Embracing capitalism without acknowledging the downsides is just about the most dangerous thing imaginable.

But then, Marx's proposed solutions... well, you know. They've never worked out too well. To make the understatement of a lifetime.