[LeonM]

> He shows other truckers his one and they are all so surprised about the quality of this European truck, them getting the feeling that the US truck industry has been sleeping for decades in terms of evolution.

As a European visiting US/Canada I once struck a conversation with a truck driver who had a really cool vintage semi, with lots of chrome and flare. I told him that I really liked the look of his truck, but that vintage trucks of that age would never be allowed on the road again in Europe, at least not for commercial jobs.

He then told me his truck was basically brand new...

Besides me making a fool of myself, I really grew an appreciation for the EU having rules about semis, especially in the noise department. Yeah, US domestic semi trucks are cool in their own way, but the constant noise of clutch fans, air brakes, 'jake' brakes, 'stack' exhaust with no of mufflers, etc. would drive me insane.

In (most of) Europe, all vehicles are subject to strict noise and emission rules, and many larger cities are now congestion zones which prohibits larger/older diesel powered vehicles from entering the city. Same for my city, where most trucks and busses are now electric. Since it happened gradually the change wasn't all that noticeable, that is until you go somewhere else and hear (and smell!) a diesel powered bus/semi drive by... We like to complain about all the 'stupid' government rules, but when you go to a place without those laws you really start to appreciate them, it truly feels like taking a step 'back' for the worse.

[porphyra]

For some reason, from a purely aesthetic standpoint, even brand new electric trucks in the US look very vintage, with their giant chrome grill and fender flares, compared to European and Asian trucks. [1]

[1] https://www.peterbilt.com/trucks/zero-emission/567EV

[stevage]

Maybe everyone in this thread knows this, but it hasn't been mentioned: US trucks are all cab-behind-engine, and European trucks are all cab-over-engine. That's why they look so different. The US style supposedly has some benefits in maintenance and maybe efficiency, but the European style works much better in cities with narrow streets and tight turns.

[jones89176]

I think it's mainly a regulation/law thing:

"In contrast, European regulations are much stricter regarding the dimensions of trucks. In European Union member countries, trucks cannot exceed 18.75 meters in length, which prioritizes the maximum use of available space for cargo. Manufacturers resort to solutions such as the use of smaller cabs and flat bodies to comply with these regulations while still maintaining cargo capacity."

https://www.sgibinc.com/en/differences-between-american-and-...

[stevage]

Thanks - presumably those regulations on length didn't come out of nowhere though, right?

[jones89176]

Here's the actual EU directive:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/1996/53/oj/eng

I tried to find some official document that properly explained how and why they agreed on these values, but it's really hard to find proper documents. After all, the directive was agreed on in 1996...

Here's a link to perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/why-is-the-length-of-trucks...

To sum it up, it's a mix of everything: Safety (for infrastructure and humans), efficiency, and of course EU-wide harmonization of standards.

[porphyra]

That's part of the reason, but it doesn't explain the use of chrome, rectangular or round headlights instead of molded headlights that integrate into the bodywork, and many other design elements that have remained virtually unchanged since the 1970s. I think a lot of it is just that Americans like the look.

Even a brand new electric cab over garbage truck looks vintage: https://www.peterbilt.com/trucks/zero-emission/520EV

[samsolomon]

TBH, that's Peterbuilt's design language. My guess is that the parent poster was talking about the 589. That's what I think of when I think about tractor-trailers. https://www.peterbilt.com/trucks/on-highway/589

[toast0]

> it doesn't explain the use of chrome, rectangular or round headlights instead of molded headlights that integrate into the bodywork,

Interchangable standardized parts are a bad thing now?

[porphyra]

If you compare, say, the Peterbilt 579 and 589, you'll find that the former is way more modern looking and aerodynamic and the latter is very classic and old school looking. The 579 is also vastly more fuel efficient. I'm fairly certain that the classic design of the 589 is entirely for aesthetic reasons rather than for part interchangeability.

https://www.peterbilt.com/trucks/on-highway

[newsclues]

Different supply chains.

[_mitterpach]

This might be completely wrong, since my understanding is based very much off of Truck Simulator games, but isn’t one of the reasons aerodynamics as well? The US is huge, and trips can take several days at high speeds, so aerodynamic improvements can save quite a bit of money, whereas EU is smaller, the trucks do not go at large speeds for as long and have to navigate tiny city streets, thus being more compact is an advantage there.

[greenavocado]

Look into truck speed limits in the EU. They are absurdly low. It's common to see trucks in America going 75 mph for comparison. A typical governor is 80 mph.

Most EU trucks are GOVERNED to 56 mph. American trucks are high performance racing machines by comparison.

[crote]

> American trucks are high performance racing machines by comparison.

Only when you look at governed speed. If I remember the aforementioned Bruce Wilson videos correctly, his imported truck has something like 120 horsepower more than the local counterparts.

Weight-wise, American trucks are limited to 80.000 lbs. The EU allows 88.000 lbs everywhere, but heavier trucks are becoming more and more common. For example, short-distance transport to and from sea ports can be 97.000 lbs, they are exploring raising the EU-wide limit to 132.000 lbs, and Finland and Sweden already allow 165.000 lbs for long-distance transport with trials for 194.000 lbs. That's over twice as much cargo per truck as in the US!

And going fast is one thing, but you need to be able to do so safely. I've heard plenty of stories of American truckers complaining about it being "impossible to stop quickly". Meanwhile in Europe things like radar-assisted emergency braking are becoming the default, and the trucks are able to stop on a dime. Kid suddenly jumps in front of a truck? No problem, they'll live [0]. The driver is going to need a new pair of pants and the trailer is going to be an absolute mess, but that kid hasn't been turned into physics!

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOw8AjHfnoA

[bigfatkitten]

Both European and American prime movers have been in service for many years on road trains in Australia with gross masses over 600,000lb, though that’s only in remote areas.

150,000lb B-doubles however are common nationwide.

https://www.nhvr.gov.au/files/201707-0577-common-heavy-freig...

[Xss3]

They're low for emissions, safety, and efficiency purposes.

Overall its a net benefit to all of society, including the truckers that cant be pressured to go faster to meet a target.

[b112]

It may be efficient in Europe, but when trucks drive long distances (are you sure you understand how far?), speed makes a huge difference.

You'd literally need to build more roads, as long haul trucks would be on the road, literally, for an entire day longer per load. Speed is efficiency.

A lot of driving is actually done at night. Fewer cars.

[Symbiote]

It's more that the EU regulations on the total length of the articulated lorry include the tractor, but American regulations limit the length of each part.

[Gare]

True, but that EU regulation is based on the ground truth of much less spacious roads and cities.

[gmueckl]

Not quite. Originally, the tighter length limits were intended to give trucks a disadvantage compared to freight trains. But engine technology caught up and more efficient smaller engines negated that limitation.

[crote]

Not really. A regular truck & trailer is way too big to fit in space-constrained city centers. When it gets really tight they'll just send a box truck, often with a trailer they can leave behind outside the city center for some extra capacity when it's a multi-stop trip [0]. The fancy ones even have doors in the front of the trailer, making it quite easy to move freight from the trailer into the box truck itself.

On the other hand, the highway infrastructure has plenty of space for large trucks. If the roads to & from the main highway network can handle it, some countries will give you permits for all sorts of fancy combinations[1] up to 83 ft long. Considering that it'll still be pulled with a regular cab-over truck, that's a lot of space for freight. They are now even trialing the "Super EcoCombi", which is essentially two full semi-trailers[2], for a total of 105 ft!

[0]: https://assets-global.website-files.com/6424195493a93d7e7fe4...

[1]: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langere_en_Zwaardere_Vrachtaut...

[2]: https://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads...

[justsomehnguy]

> aerodynamic improvements can save quite a bit of money

If there were any significant amount of a saved money then a 'brick style' tractors like Peterbilt 389 [0] would be long gone purely by economical factors. It's still a brick on wheels which pushes a multi-ton load.

It's more a combination of a lack of a meaningful train system, an overall spareness of the cities and the roads and a male appendage measuring cont^W^W^W^W history and customs around the trucks[1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peterbilt_Semi-Tractor.jp... It was introduced in 2007.

EDIT:

[1] heh: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44479293

[sokoloff]

> lack of a meaningful train system

The US moves the most freight by rail in the world; seems meaningful…

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/highest-railway-cargo-tr...

[WillAdams]

The problem of course is that during WWII, every narrow gauge feeder line of less than 100 miles length in the U.S. was pulled up and shipped to Europe for the war effort --- after the war, there was little effort made to rebuild them (the big 3 focusing on the individually owned car and so forth) --- remember this the next time a European boasts about their wonderful rail system:

https://armyhistory.org/railroaders-in-olive-drab-the-milita...

[justsomehnguy]

sigh

Yes, it moves a lot. Because there are 300m+ people there[0]. But if you just search for a 'USA train network' and compare that to a 'Europe train network' it would be pretty self evident.

Also take a note of the cargo distribution of the US train traffic in the link you provided yourself:

>> Of all the rail cargo, approximately 91% is made up of agriculture and energy products, vehicles and parts, construction materials, coal, chemicals, food, metal, minerals, and paper.

Most of it is not transported by the trucks in the first place. And what matters the most is what you need a proper network distribution so you only haul the last 50-100kms on the trucks, instead of the "trips [what] can take several days at high speeds"[1]

So you brought the wrong metric in the numbers measuring contest.

[0] and let's ignore what China and Russia has a quite comparable numbers of tonne-kilometers: 2.525, 2.518, 2.222.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44479968

[stevejb]

> It's more a combination of a lack of a meaningful train system

Doesn't the USA have the world's largest and most cost-effective rail freight network? This seems meaningful.

[stevage]

Yes, that's what I was referring to by efficiency.

[giantg2]

Makes me wonder if you couldn't have some sort of pop-out aero fender on the cab over trucks for use at higher speeds.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

I am frankly amazed that US trucks, which already have an elongated "nose first" tractor shape, have not evolved to look more like high-speed train engines.

[giantg2]

Some have become more aerodynamic with the mirrors, over cab cowling, and wheel cowling. I wonder if some of the flat front had to do with airflow over the radiator.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Cab-overs do exist in the US. They are primarily used for short haul and are less common than they were in decades past. The 70s TV show BJ and the Bear featured a Kenworth with a sleeper cab. Those don't seem to exist anymore in the US.

[mradek]

Do you think it’s because they’re using diesel?

In my layman pov… A diesel engine can take the least aerodynamically shaped body and move it at 60 mph for 1k miles no problem. As an American, I guess it’s just natural to me that if it can move, then it should move with glory!!

Edit: my bad I didn’t properly read your post

[rsynnott]

~All trucks, except for electric ones, are diesel, and have been for a long time.

[porphyra]

The one I linked is all electric.

[mradek]

Wowza!! Ok I checked out the link. My bad for not reading ur post properly.

Yikes 100-250 mile range.

Probably fine for what it is.

[Qwertious]

The range only needs to cover the period between mandated brakes. Everything over that is wasted weight, as the weight of the cargo and the weight of the truck share a weight budget.

[IshKebab]

Yeah the range between mandated breaks is way over 100 miles. In the UK it is 45 minutes after 4.5 hours driving, so about 270 miles. But you need to account for the likelihood that there isn't a charger at the break stop. On the other hand the Volvo trucks in this article apparently have a similar range and they're selling so I guess it's worth the hassle.

[BrentOzar]

> The range only needs to cover the period between mandated brakes.

I was confused there for a second until I realized you meant "breaks."

[jtbayly]

That’s technically true, I suppose, but dishonest since you imply that those numbers are large enough to max out driving time. You wouldn’t be able to drive to your first mandatory 30 minute break with that range.

[dieortin]

I don’t think using a diesel engine would make the fuel efficiency losses from having bad aerodynamics any better

[algo_trader]

Why are e-trucks like this getting 1/100th of the not-yet-in-mass-production Tesla Semi?

Can i go in and order 100 of these? Are they custom/super-expensive?

[rsynnott]

Apparently so: https://electrek.co/2024/06/01/einride-orders-150-peterbilt-...

[93po]

Volvo: 600km range, 82k lb capacity, 60% charge in 40 minutes, $350k

Tesla: 800km range, 82k lb capacity, 70% charge in 30 minutes (with a much higher capacity battery), $250k

Telsa would also probably have better dealer network, better software (self driving), better charger network

Why would anyone buy Volvo?

[gamblor956]

The Tesla battery is almost twice the size of the Volvo VNR Electric battery but only gets slightly more range than the comparably specced Volvo VNR Electric when fully loaded.

But the Volvo VNR Electric can be self-serviced. Tesla Semis can't. And given Tesla's abysmal service history, that's a deal breaker. And it's why no company has actually used Tesla Semis beyond the token trial Semi they purchased using government grants.

[rasz]

Because you _can_ but Volvo right now, its a real product.

[beAbU]

Because the volvo truck exists and tesla does not?

Also, have you learned nothing when it comes to announced specs of a new tesla vs real world specs when it lands?

[93po]

okay, but these are future purchases. these companies already have a fleet of diesel trucks that are working. and at some point they need to expand and replace existing, and they're clearly fine waiting for a better product at a better price to do so, because at some point the break-even doesn't make sense if something costs 30% and does less.

it's not "im buying volvo because tesla semis arent in super mass production yet". it's "i'm going to replace with an EV semi when it makes prudent financial sense to do so". and for some companies that means buying a volvo now, and for others it means extending the lifespan of their current fleet a bit until teslas are more available, and if you can wait, it makes sense to do so

its also worth noting that volvo didn't deliver 5000 semis comparable to tesla's semi. that 5k number includes their entire fleet of trucks, including significantly smaller ones with significantly smaller range and less capacity. it makes sense to out-sell tesla in an area where tesla literally isn't even making a comparable product

[Xenoamorphous]

US trucks are much cooler looking, although I don’t doubt European ones are more efficient and practical.

Even firetrucks, the ones I saw in SF looked so cool compred to the ones I see over here.

[vladgur]

Speaking of “complaining about stupid government rules”, I’m currently waiting to board a flight back to SFO from Europe and one thing that I have missed through my southern Europe vacation are the rules prohibiting smoking in or around the restaurant.

This is what I got used to in California but unfortunately should you find a fantastic outdoor restaurant table to enjoy the European sunset, chances are somebody will be smoking right next to you and your kid.

[ezst]

I suppose it's highly location-dependent. For instance, France recently banned smoking at the beach, parks and bus shelters.

[WillAdams]

Reasons behind this:

- many U.S. truckers are owner-operators --- the rig has to appeal to them, and is in many ways, an extension of their self-perception

- bring up a map of the U.S. and plot occupations on it, removing "school teacher" and "farmer" --- for many rural counties, the most common (and one of the best-paying) is long-haul trucker --- I can still vividly recall the elaborate drawings and plans which many of my classmates in a rural school would draw up of elaborate 18-wheelers (that this situation was brought about by the county board of supervisors being comprised of large land owners who wanted an essentially captive population to work their farms is a different discussion)

[alpineman]

It's fine for it to be an extension of their self-perception, but when said extension reaches into my bedroom when I'm sleeping then I am 100% in the pro-regulation camp.

[WillAdams]

That is why most of the townships near where I live have signage prohibiting air brake usage.

I live close enough to the Pa. Turnpike that it's not particularly pleasant to be in my front yard (back is okay) and am still angry about a previous set of neighbors cutting down the trees which markedly screened the noise and filtered some of the road dust.

[newsclues]

How about the government regulating housing so that you have to upgrade your insulation and windows to keep the noise out?

Oh wait, you want government regulating (with massive costs) to apply to other people for your comfort!!!

I wonder why people hate the government and excessive regulation?

[ericyd]

Based on this response I have to assume you spend 100% of your time in your house and can't understand why diesel trucks would ever impact someone in another setting.

[newsclues]

Nope, but I ride a bike for my commute.

So I guess all the cars and trucks should be taken off the road to improve my safety right? How dare they pollute with their engines and break dust, that is harmful to my health! I should not have to wear a mask to bike safety in a city because vehicles emit dangerous emissions and pollution.

FYI the local garage truck is a diesel and I can hear it because my windows are old and crappy

[rossng]

Assuming you mean a bicycle, yes, you absolutely deserve safe segregated infrastructure to keep you away from conflict with vehicles. It's better for everyone and I think many cities are now catching onto that.

And you should also feel entitled to clean, breathable air while walking and cycling. Any local government that cares about the safety of residents would agree, I think.

[indigo945]

"I should have to wear a mask to bike safely in a city because vehicles emit dangerous emissions and pollution" is the most sane libertarian take I've read this week.

[user_7832]

Reducing the externality in the first place can be more efficient than trying to work around ways once it already exists.

Property rights as described by Ronald Coase would help find a near optimum solution.

[lokar]

The homeowner is not the one intruding on the commons

[newsclues]

Other than the monopolization of the land from public commons to private property…

[const_cast]

Roads are already extremely loud and unpleasant.

Part of the reason the US has a problem with too many people being fat and dropping like flies is because nobody wants to go outside. Outside is hot, outside doesn't have enough shade, outside is actively hostile to humans trying to do human things.

Oh? What's that? You want to go walk and get a cup of coffee? How about you go fuck yourself instead?

You want to sit outside and enjoy your meal? Well guess what, it smells like diesel and you won't be able to hear your own thoughts.

[neom]

fwiw and not to diminish your point, semi trucks in Canada are rarely heard, they mostly drive along our massive highways, they are generally not allowed in cities, and you can drive from one end of Canada to the other (east <> west) on Highway 1 without entering cities/big towns, the most populated area you have to drive through is at the Ontario/Manitoba border. (Source, I've driven Canada fully, end to end e->w)

[knotimpressed]

I mean, they’re rarely heard by people, but they’re certainly heard by everything else trying to live near the highway that as you said, cuts across the entire country.

Now, not to say you don’t make a good point, but noise pollution is pollution, and reducing it does have benefits.

I severely underestimated how loud a single semi was until I was camping 5km from a highway and couldn’t hear the cars, but could certainly hear the trucks.

[mensetmanusman]

US semis travel 2-3x further per haul on average.

[NietTim]

Which means very little; european trucks are allowed to haul 10~15% more weight per axle. Being allowed to drive faster and or for longer has little to do with 'hardware' beyond different gearing and more to do with road safety and labor laws.

[mensetmanusman]

For the same amount of time, US semis travel further requiring more power consumption following a cubic power law.

[m463]

From what I understand "US Domestic semi trucks" are not homogenous.

For example, I think trucks in california are usually almost new due to regulations.