[GeneralMayhem]

I don't think that's the point. If non-technical people are able to make a product happen by asking a machine to do it for them, that's fine. But they're not engineering. It simply means that engineering is no longer required to make such a product. Engineering is the act of solving problems. If there are no problems to solve, then maybe you've brought about the product, but you haven't "engineered" it.

I don't think that memorizing arcane Linux CLI invocations is "engineering" either, to be clear.

[thunky]

If I were to "build" the next big app entirely using llms, never writing a line of code, did I create it and do I own it?

If you answered yes that's really all that matters imo. Label me what you want.

[toofy]

If you hired people to build that product, you never wrote a line of code. No, you didn’t build it. Your team did. You’re not magically a software engineer, you hired someone else to do it.

Is there a product? Yep. Do you own it? Maybe. But again, you’re not suddenly the engineer. A project manager? Maybe.

[thunky]

> No, you didn’t build it

That's why I used the word create. I would be responsible for the creation of the product, so imo I created it. I'm the creator. It wouldn't exist without my vision, direction, and investment (of time and/or money).

Like a movie Producer: they don't actually "build" the movie. They use their money pay people to manifest a movie, and at the end of it they have created a movie and get a share of the profits (or losses) that come with it.

No, they shouldn't call themselves cinematographers, but they can say that they "produced" the movie and nobody takes issue with that.

> Do you own it? Maybe.

If I paid for it then absolutely I own it. I get to keep the future profits because I took the risk. The people that "built" it get nothing more than what I paid them for their labor (unless I offerred them ownership shares).

[toofy]

i think people are trying to make this difficult when it’s honestly super simple.

yes, you can make a product. no, it does not suddenly magically make you a musician.

you did the equivalent of hiring someone else to do it. you did not do it.

if you claim you wrote the novel, you’re lying. someone else did. if someone takes credit for work someone else did, they’re lying. it’s honestly not complicated. at all.

[thunky]

you're not countering what i'm saying, so i think we agree.

i'm just adding that (as an "engineer") i don't care what you call me, or what i call myself, because nobody cares and it doesn't matter. i'm commodified labor. replacable. with no claim on anything. and nobody will ever agree on the correct title anyway.

what actually matters imo is who the owner is.

[toofy]

yeah, it sounds like we both agree with the original post.

it literally doesn’t make someone an engineer.

its not difficult to understand but for some reason when its said it pisses certain people off.

i suspect many of the people upset want to convince themselves they’re suddenly magically a musician, architect, engineer, novelist, programmer, etc… when it just couldn’t be further from the truth. they’re just doing the equivalent of sending a dm to a coder friend and the friend is the actual programmer.

i think some people don’t appreciate being told the truth.