[rank0]

The data on this is very clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c....

> According to the OECD, 'household disposable income is income available to households such as wages and salaries, income from self-employment and unincorporated enterprises, income from pensions and other social benefits, and income from financial investments (less any payments of tax, social insurance contributions and interest on financial liabilities). 'Gross' means that depreciation costs are not subtracted.'[1] This indicator also takes account of social transfers in kind 'such as health or education provided for free or at reduced prices by governments and not-for-profit organisations.'

United States: 62,300

France: 45,548

Americans need to be more grateful for what they have.

[saubeidl]

Disposable income is a poor metric to use though.

Money isn't everything. The french have better public transport, more social stability, a life expectancy that's higher by five (!) years etc etc.

By pretty much whatever standard you use, their quality of life is much higher.

[rank0]

Look, I am not saying life is inherently better in America vs France. This thread started as a debate about wages and social benefits. If you're truly interested in a good faith discussion on that topic, the metrics I'm highlighting are essential. If you've already cemented your opinion and just have a bone to pick with the United States there's probably not much common ground we can find.

> Disposable income is a poor metric to use though.

Hard Disagree. It's directly related to standard of living. You're also leaving out the other parts. It's adjusted for PPP, taxes, essential household costs (healthcare, shelter, etc), and social benefits.

> Money isn't everything. The french have better public transport, more social stability, a life expectancy that's higher by five (!) years etc etc.

Of course money isn't everything...but again we started off by talking about it.

> By pretty much whatever standard you use, their quality of life is much higher.

Except for household income, wealth, affordability, and others. See for yourself! This is an excellent resource: https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?lc=en&tm=NAAG&pg=0&snb=12...

As another random (non-definitive) data point take the homelessness rate: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/homelessn...

I stand by my statement. Too many Americans don't appreciate how good they have it. Cultural differences are real.

[saubeidl]

I think if you're a person that is primarily focused on economic indicators, I can see your point.

Because you mentioned it, I do think a lot of this comes down to cultural differences. To me (and to most Europeans!), the economic stuff just doesn't matter as much, so it's not a compelling argument to make.

I had excellent cheap pasta on a beautiful plaza in Italy yesterday, I got there via 30 euro Ryanair flight, and I booked it over my abundant PTO. At no point exploring Florence, a city of 400.000 people, did I feel unsafe at all.

That, to me, is the kind of stuff that really matters and the kind of stuff that I just can't have in the US.

It's also the kind of stuff that is hard to capture in economic stats, which is why I don't really pay as much attention to them.

I've lived in the US for almost a decade. I made a lot more money, but my life felt worse.

But maybe Americans really do just have different values and they'd rather have more money on their bank account.

I upvoted you because you argued your point well.

It's just that we're talking past each other, quality of life is so much more than that. It's the environment you live in. It's knowing that a random piece of bread you'll buy in a supermarket or in a train station will have a certain level of quality. It's cheese that doesn't taste like plastic. It's having time to spend with your loved ones. It's nobody having to worry about a medical emergency bankrupting them. It's higher education not being gated to the well-off.

[FirmwareBurner]

>To me (and to most Europeans!), the economic stuff just doesn't matter as much

Then why did you move to make more money in the US? Why are many young Europeans moving to work abroad?

People who gaslight others for chasing money, are those who already have enough money and can't empathize with those wo do not.

>I had excellent cheap pasta on a beautiful plaza in Italy yesterday, I got there via 30 euro Ryanair flight

Cherry picking personal holiday travels isn't representative of anything in this topic. Also 30 Euro flights are not the norm everywhere. You need to live in the right country/city and get lucky.

[saubeidl]

It's just to illustrate a point regarding quality of life.

Experiences like these are just straight up impossible in the US. Believe me, I've tried. There's no nice Italian plazas anywhere and in most places in the country you wouldn't even wanna be sitting outside.

[nec4b]

Is it possible for you drive over the border to Mexico and have best Mexican food costing almost nothing. Can you fly to Caribbean or Hawaii over the weekend? Can you camp in Grand Canyon, Yosemite or Yellowstone? Your view is in no way representative of a typical European who cares a lot more about money then you. Money, which you ironically made in the states.

[FirmwareBurner]

Touristic spots are taste dependent subjective, not indicative of objective quality of life metrics.

[const_cast]

It's important to note as someone living in the US, most of our cost of living is completely invisible. We have thousands of "small" invisible taxes tacked on to everything we do.

Benefits are expensive, healthcare is expensive, transportation is expensive, food is expensive, and on and on. It's quite hard to just compare the US to France because of that. I think a lot of this "disposable income" relies on you being an able-bodied person of young age with zero health conditions and zero risk of emergencies. As soon as that's not the case, that "disposable" income vanishes.

[maeln]

From my anecdotal evidence (so it proves nothing), it seems like being poor / middle class in France is better than in the U.S. But being high-middle class / rich / in the owner class, is better in the U.S, since you already don't need the socialized healthcare, you actively seek segregated places to live, you do not take the public transport (or at least that often), etc, but you do get to enjoy all the amenities for rich people that the U.S offer, which is way more than France since it has a higher volume of rich people.

[saubeidl]

[flagged]

[tomhow]

Please don't stir up nationalistic flamewar like this on HN.

[saubeidl]

The sentiment expressed is explicitly anti-nationalist.

[tomhow]

Yes, right, and our position is the same, whichever the direction of the attack.

[zorobo]

I assume you are not living in Paris then. Here in Paris:

- housing is expensive

- it's not cardboard boxes, it's tents

- you'd be mugged/knifed rather than shot, agreed

- public transportation is good when not on strike. However, it's dirty and you might get robbed

- the world's most creative government when it comes to taxes

- it's still beautiful though…

[saubeidl]

I don't live in Paris. Generally, I don't love cities >2M inhabitants.

The parts of Paris I went to recently were quite nice, but of course, a tourists view is different from a locals.

I'd be surprised if it was anywhere near as bad as, say the SF tenderloin though.

[FirmwareBurner]

>my net worth is easily in the seven figures. I ended up moving away for the above reasons.

Easy to high road others now, AFTER you made 7 figures in the country you now publicly despise, and wouldn't be able to where you're originally from.

Why try to emotionally pull the ladder?

[zzzeek]

Yeah I didn't say "richer" I said "better"