[AdieuToLogic]

Here is a gradated set of exercises to determine one's phone addiction, if any, in increasing levels of potential difficulty.

  1 - on an off day, with no reason to require phone use,
    put your phone in a dresser drawer for the day and
    do not use or look at it.

  2 - on an off day, with no reason to require phone use,
    put your phone in a dresser drawer for the day and
    leave your residence for at least one hour.

  3 - leave your phone at home when either meeting friends,
    getting lunch, or going to the grocery store.

  4 - leave your phone at home when going into the office
    for one day.

  5 - leave your phone in a dresser drawer for an entire
    weekend.

  6 - leave your phone at home when traveling for more
    than a day (vacation, visiting family, etc.).

[franga2000]

I guess it's a good test for something, but I wouldn't call that something "phone addiction". I think wanting to be reachable by friends and family is fine and "addiction" starts when you start compulsively using your phone, like if you're scrolling through [insert social media here].

And phones are much more than content consumption machines - I like having a little pocket camera with me in case a see a new cat in the neighbourhood or something, and looking up bus schedules, renting city bikes, calling a cab, etc. are things I all but need to be able to do when I'm out.

My trick to almost never looking at my phone has been, somewhat ironically, having a smartwatch, as well as carefully curating the notifications I get on my phone. If I know I can't miss an important notification, I'll never even look at my phone, so there's no chance I even see one of those time wasting apps. And when a notification buzzes on my wrist, I can see in a fraction of a second if it's something really important or if it can wait.

[Ajedi32]

Yeah, this feels to me a bit like trying to find out if you're addicted to indoor plumbing by committing to not flushing your toilet for a week.

Maybe if we were talking about social media or some other non-essential service on my phone, but the phone itself is hard to do without because of its practical utility, not because of addiction.

[ikr678]

Being reachable by family and friends 24/7 has only been normal in the past 25 years. For the entire rest of human history, we seemed to do fine without this.

I think it also has changed what our perception of a true emergency is. When I was a kid, if I needed to be picked up from an event, it was on me to be at the pickup point at the right time, and my parent to be there. If for whatever reason we couldnt make it, there was always an alternative plan 'wait at the meetup, wait inside the venue, go home with a friend'.

Not getting picked up and being forced to wait with some uncertainty was not an emergency, it was an inconvenience.

[jszymborski]

Smartwatches similarly have had the same effect for me and I can anecdotally recommend it.

I think another thing to consider is having ways for people to reach you _without_ your cell phone. For instance, I have a home phone, and calling my cell also rings that home phone. You could set up something similar if you have an office phone, or using a softphone on your desktop. That leaves you with instances where you leave home or the office, which are honestly cases where I'm personally least likely to look at my phone because I'm usually doing things that occupy my full attention (unless I'm commuting where I'm often reading a book on my phone).

[myself248]

These are very good. I take phone-free walks around the neighborhood, to the store, downtown for a festival. It feels weird at first, then it's nice.

I took an internet-free vacation last spring, and it was lovely.

While planning the trip, I made sure my old TomTom's built-in maps seemed accurate to what I was seeing online; there wasn't a lot of road-building activity there in the last decade or two. Then I turned off my phone and locked it in the glovebox, there in case of emergency.

Then I took a deep breath, started the car, and headed north.

It was awesome just knowing there was no way a notification could ding, nobody could call me, no news headline could pop up and harsh my mellow. Even if those things didn't actually happen constantly, simply existing in a state where they could was stressful, apparently, and turning the damn thing off was remarkably cathartic.

[rrr_oh_man]

If you haven't done it, yet: Turn notifications off. All of them. It will improve your life.

[AdieuToLogic]

Reading your story brings joy to my heart, not for any reason other than I can see in my mind's eye what you describe. And it rocks!

Freedom is a gift, not from without, but found from within.

We set ourself free by our choices. And we shackle ourselves by same.

[annie_muss]

The problem is I know that I am completely addicted, but I cannot stop. I feel like I'm the alcoholic drinking a bottle of vodka a day. I have tried to give up many times but I just can't crack it. Every time I have a good day the next day just slides right back into addiction. I probably average around 5-10 hours of pointless screen time a day (scrolling random youtube clips. Researching items I will never buy. Fantasizing about jobs I can never get. )

I have tried all kinds of blocking software and strategies. Blocking software, however elaborate, never seems to make a different. You find one way or another to get around the block and then after a while turning off the block just becomes part of your muscle memory. The most extreme thing I tried was cutting off the internet to my house and going back to a dumbphone for 6 months. For sure, I probably had less screen time. But I also spent many hours sitting in the station using the public wifi or watching hours and hours of pointless television.

This is a really tough nut to crack. I think there is probably no technological solution to it.

[omikun]

Addiction is not the problem. It is a (poor) solution to a problem. Figure what your underlying problem is and address it first. Without doing that, you are only taking away one solution with no alternative.

For me, I noticed I have no compulsion to surf after hanging out with friends where I have their attention and curiosity and they have mine. It is like an oxytocin surge that depletes overtime and needs recharging. Scrolling is like junk food in that it feels like a recharge but empties as soon as I stop.

I now call up a friend or arrange a hangout if I feel like I’m running low and it’s amazing how many friends are delighted to hear from me but then never reach out.

[conductr]

Generally, I think it's boredom. Specifically, many people haven't learned it is a life skill to deal with boredom, instead they constantly find a way be entertained and a phone always within reach offers a great solution to that problem. I say, force yourself to be bored without a phone. Pick up a book, pick up a hobby, go outside, talk to people (meat space), gardening, exercise, etc.

Even people older, like me, who grew up without these things for a good portion of their life. They lost the ability to be bored and need to relearn it.

I personally have always refused to get sucked into the phone. Never turned notifications on, never cared about social media, etc. I don't like video'ing the concert I'm attending. I like being present and I love being bored.

[thomastjeffery]

Even if there isn't an underlying problem, the only real way to change a habit is to replace it with a new one.

I have noticed that usually people who make it their mission to stop doing a thing are replacing that thing with the mission itself. This strategy is always bound for failure, because the moment it starts to work for them is the moment they end the mission. This is when, instead of reevaluating their strategy, they punish themselves for the failure to not do. The cycle repeats, and the person spirals into rumination about their stress.

I didn't just stop biting my nails. I started trimming them instead.

[kobenni]

You are correct that working on underlying issues is very important, but there is a huge practical value to blocking out distractions. First of all, it gets you started on scrolling a lot less immediately. Secondly, it makes concentrating on the important parts of life and thus the underlying issues much easier as you have more time and energy now. Thirdly, you will always have some bad days, you will always have some issues in your life that you can't fix (yet), but having a mechanism that stops you from re-entering the habit independently of your current state is really helpful in stabilizing your behavior.

What I'm trying to say is that blocking and working on the "deeper" issues are stronger when used synergistically, it doesn't have to be an either or.

[annie_muss]

I think this is a helpful reframing, and I have spent time in my life trying to eliminate any possible issues: Improving nutrition, exercise, socialization etc. But my ability stay focused and work on tasks seems essentially random.

[AdieuToLogic]

Full disclosure:

  I am just some rando on the internet and only share
  what I hope will help.  In no way is the below a
  replacement for professional counseling.

> The problem is I know that I am completely addicted, but I cannot stop. I feel like I'm the alcoholic drinking a bottle of vodka a day. I have tried to give up many times but I just can't crack it.

My first recommendation is to try to not beat yourself up about this. No one knows how to hurt you more than yourself.

My second recommendation is to take small steps and allow yourself time for each new habit to become entrenched. For example, keep your phone in your pocket instead of visibly near. Once that feels natural, incorporate the next habit which you feel reduces the device's prominence in daily life.

> I have tried all kinds of blocking software and strategies. Blocking software, however elaborate, never seems to make a different.

As others have mentioned and you describe, using an app on the device to alter dependency on the device likely will not work as the device remains the focal point.

> This is a really tough nut to crack. I think there is probably no technological solution to it.

It is and I believe you are entirely correct in identifying "no technological solution to it." If we pursue this hypothesis to its logical conclusion, then one or more solutions must exist outside the technical space. Which suggests a solution might be found in the behavioral space as the two actors in this scenario are a person and a device.

I'm not saying this will be easy nor simple, only that I hope you find peace in finding your solution.

[pjc50]

> watching hours and hours of pointless television

This is the thing; the brain is not actually comfortable just sitting idle with the reins slack. There's got to be some stimulus. I don't think there's any real solution other than finding a displacement activity. I know somebody who weaned themselves off smoking by developing a Gameboy Tetris addiction instead.

Other than going out and trying to be social, there's a whole range of "something to do with your hands" activities. If you take up knitting then at least at the end of it you have a scarf. Myself, I'm trying to train myself to open one of the language learning apps every time I think I'm spending time scrolling.

[abyssin]

One solution to how easy it is to get around self-inflicted blocks could be to find someone that agrees to manage your phone using the parental features. Personally I haven't found someone who I feel I could trust with such a power over me. Maybe a solution would be to pay somebody.

[littlecranky67]

Try to parental software and put the code into a time-lock like lockmeout.online - there is no way to bypass that or circumvent your way around it if you do it right in the first place.

[wltr]

My solution to this was substitute one thing for another. E.g. instead of visiting Facebook, I visit hacker news. But since I just hate most of the posts, comments, ycombinator and dang personally, I tend to spend much less time here. It’s less engaging than flashy Instagram, Facebook, or real news websites, so I’m less addicted. Over time, it’s easier to fight the smaller addiction. Given this HN example, I still can spend hours reading comments to some active topic, but when I see some sheer stupidity, I realise ‘hey, I’m just wasting my time here!’ And it’s easier to close the tab and go back to the real world.

[rightbyte]

Have you tried mounting the phone to a wall or something when at home?

I figure the accessibility of phones are what makes the mindless scrooling habit so dangerous.

I mean I keep my beer in the garage to not drink as much.

[kobenni]

This post reminds me of myself in the past.

One thing I found very helpful was to regularly practice mindfulness meditation, as it reduces my desire for entertainment and generally seems to improve my executive function a lot. It also caused other improvements to my well-being in general.

Regarding a technological solution to blocking, I did the following (on Android, I can handle myself on non-portable devices):

1: Use adguard to block the relevant addresses on DNS level. I chose adguard specifically because it allows setting regex-like patterns on what addresses to block, eliminating loop holes.

2: Use applock (I haven't informed if applock specifically is better or worse than alternatives) to require a passcode when opening settings, when opening adguard, and when opening applock itself. Store this passcode in a way that it's cumbersome but possible to reach. Ask a friend or relative to set and store it for you if necessary.

3: Remove the icons of adguard and applock from the home screen, so that they are only reachable through settings -> apps.

This has worked well for me. It's cumbersome enough to discourage me from deactivating it. It's not so cumbersome that I can't update the block list if necessary. It's flexible enough that I can very precisely choose what to block and what not. And it's specialized for (android) smartphones, which are the worst scrolling addiction drivers.

You could also throw in Google parental controls to stop yourself from downloading apps if necessary, but I found that DNS blocks are enough for me.

If you struggle with other devices as well, like TVs, consider whether you can get away with not owning these devices at all.

All that being said, professional psychological help for addiction and executive dysfunction exists. That would have been my last resort if the methods mentioned above hadn't turned out to be sufficient for me.

Good luck, don't give up.

[kolinko]

Did you check yourself for adhd?

[annie_muss]

I was diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago as an adult. I take medication for it and try my best to apply strategies but it is hard going. I wrote down some simple todos at 9am this morning but it's the end of the day now and I've done maybe 30 minutes of focused work and the rest browsing the internet.

The confusing thing is sometimes I have days when I do manage to do work, but I can never see what I do differently on those days to other days.

[kolinko]

Did you discuss this with psychiatrist/therapist?

At least for me this is the pattern I had before I had a good enough dose of meds.

[annie_muss]

I have spoken to a few therapists. I usually felt pretty good after speaking to them, maybe for a week or so but slip back into my old habits. Unfortunately, where I live therapy is not covered by health insurance so it's hard to afford.

[kolinko]

Did they specialise in adhd? The ones that don’t often give recomendations that are counter productive.

Also, a good idea is to explain what you’re experiencing to the paychiatrist - he may recommend different meds or increasing the dosage.

[mwidell]

I also recommend getting an Apple Watch with cellular – that way you can still be reached for emergencies, while not having access to any social media or other distractions. Since I got an apple watch I find myself leaving the phone at home more often.

[shreezus]

Agreed - I disabled all non-essential notifications (I don't need Slack pinging my wrist) and have found my watch actually helps me ditch the phone more easily.

I'm still "reachable", but the watch UX is annoying enough that I won't find myself scrolling X etc on it.

[gattilorenz]

Wouldn’t a dumbphone work better for a fraction of the price?

[jen729w]

Your dumbphone can't have your actual phone number as that SIM is in your iPhone, so it's no good for emergency notifications. The reality is that the vast majority of people can't actually use a dumbphone as their daily driver. Society has pushed us past that point.

[eemil]

This simply isn't true. Where I live every major operator offers multisim i.e. two (e)sims with the same number. It's primarily used for smartwatches, but they support phones as well.

[ikr678]

Do dumb phones accept esims though? Usually they require the physical card.

[mwidell]

A dumbphone does not have imessage, dictation, voice memos, timer, and other small things that makes life more convenient. That's why I prefer apple watch.

[bravesoul2]

You could get a few of those with a HN style Rube Goldberg where you set up a VoIP you can call that will do voice to sms, call back timer, etc.

[AdieuToLogic]

> I also recommend getting an Apple Watch with cellular – that way you can still be reached for emergencies ...

For people who realistically could require emergency contact (parents of minor children, family members with health risks, etc.) this is a wise recommendation.

However, for those not having these very genuine concerns, an Apple Watch with cellular connectivity (or equivalent device) could engender a placebo effect and mask withdrawal.

[jskherman]

Looks like I just inadvertently skipped to level 4 every workday, due to working inside of a restricted area with lots of proprietary industrial stuff.

[stiray]

Very nice, will use it on my child, but this doesn't cover my case.

I have it as a wallet (those flip cases) so it is always with me. But it can stay in backpack for days without using it, except maybe for calls (to talk with parents after I don't call for weeks :D) and to pay for public transit (huge mess to charge nfc cards). I don't use social networks, chat software (sms excluded) at all, never even registered to fb, cant even remember when was the last time I installed any app.

I consider this a very sane use of phone. It is not addiction, rather satisfying addicted society that is pressuring me to use it.

[j45]

Paying with a watch is a nice alternative too.

Beyond not having the phone with you, I think the real measure is the number of times it's picked up and/or unlocked.

[AdieuToLogic]

> Very nice, will use it on my child, but this doesn't cover my case.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I need to point out what I originally stated was:

  ... exercises to determine one's phone addiction, if any ...

Note the "if any" qualifier.

You express having no phone addiction and I have no reason to think otherwise. More importantly, I am not going to adjudicate as to yourself or anyone else.

[stiray]

Yes, sure, as i said, will practice it on my 15 years old... he probably cant do anything of stated :D

[CGMthrowaway]

How does this work when you need a phone for 2fa?

[AdieuToLogic]

> How does this work when you need a phone for 2fa?

See the stipulation of:

  on an off day, with no reason to require phone use

If you "need a phone for 2fa" then that qualifies as a "reason to require phone use."

[ecb_penguin]

You work around it

1. Get a hardware token

2. Install a TOTP desktop client

3. Only use the phone for 2FA

4. You understand the spirit of the exercise and don't get bogged down by silly rules.

[AdieuToLogic]

> How does this work when you need a phone for 2fa?

Just out of curiosity, suppose you are not on-call for work and it is an observed holiday. Do you foresee the need for two factor authentication for non-work activities?

In other words, is 2fa a requirement for daily life?

[eCa]

One example would be Github for personal projects. There are several other use cases where the phone is a factor for logging into services.

[em500]

Git pull a day before, git push a day later? Have we forgotten to do anything without a persistent internet connection 24/7? Or why we'd use a distributed version control system in the first place.

[0x457]

We also conditioned to make small feature branches. Even my hobby projects force me to go through PR process.

[eCa]

It was an example of a use case familiar to many here. Some people use Github for more than just git.

[LeafItAlone]

>In other words, is 2fa a requirement for daily life?

I never stay logged into accounts in browsers on my personal devices. And work requires daily auto. So in general if I need to do anything with any accounts, I need 2fa access. And for the phone apps I do stay logged in to, well, they are on my phone.

[timerol]

Level 4 is going into the office for a day, so anyone requiring 2fa at work cannot pass that point

[ecb_penguin]

There's no need to overcomplicate a silly exercise with rigid rules.

Focus on the intent of the exercise. If you really mentally cannot get past 2FA, then get a hardware token, or a TOTP client on your desktop. Lots of solutions if this is really the hangup.

[rrr_oh_man]

1Password?

[ec109685]

I don’t think addiction is the right way to look at it.

I think most people can easily do all the way through #6 if they put their mind to it. It’s not a physical addiction.

The real cost is when you’re not intentionally trying to deprive yourself. Do you gravitate back to unhealthy (at least the way you define it) behaviors?

[noisy_boy]

Most of the time, I don't carry a wallet so I just use my phone to tap and pay at the store. To get to the store, I use my phone on the bus to tap and buy ticket. To get back into my residence, I need to use the app on my phone to open the main gate as well as access the lift.

I can still do the first two without the phone but my housing society has eliminated physical cards with basically zero consultation.

It is basically a losing battle.

[leokennis]

This is a good one. My phone is my memory. If I ever need to be without a phone, I 100% need to carry a notebook and pen. And likely a camera.

[rrr_oh_man]

> If I ever need to be without a phone, I 100% need to carry a notebook and pen. And likely a camera.

Try it once a week. It will improve your life immeasurably.

[theoreticalmal]

I feel like I always “need” my phone, as it is my car key, workout tracker, garage door opener, baby monitor, and HVAC controller. Obviously I could have separate physical devices for all those tasks, but the whole reason I run my homelab is so that I can control them from one portable item that’s always on me

[wildpeaks]

A good compromise is to set apps to use only wifi and disable data mode of the SIM card, this way you don't receive notifications when you're outside without sacrificing the ability to call for support in case of emergency or simply take photos to capture a fleeting moment.

[blitzar]

> in increasing levels of potential difficulty

Level 0 or 100 depending on the person: take your phone with you and just don't a) look at it every 5 minutes, b) reply to incoming messages instantly or c) check in to see what some pointless celebrity posted in the last 3 minutes.

[BeFlatXIII]

Interestingly, I'd find #1 to be significantly harder than 2 and about half the scenarios in 3 [waiting for friends and would make me nervous without real time updates].

The temptation is too great to get bored and check my phone when I'm in the house with it.

[littlecranky67]

You can set the phone unlock code to a very long combination and put the unlock code into a time-lock [0]. No temptation there, yet you can still take calls and make outgoing calls (using Siri or Assistant), use the camera etc.

[0]: lockmeout.online

[subscribed]

7: don't have breakdown when travelling to your family without phone.

[moffkalast]

Yeah if there's a thing I could advise anyone is do not leave the one thing that combines literally everything one could need in an emergency and everyone relies on and expects you to have, at home.

If there's every a solid reason to use a phone it's when travelling.

[bravesoul2]

7. Keep your Nokia 3210 with you at all times

[thi2]

The hardest challenge is not using your phone when sitting on the toilet

[syabro]

Old good air freshener label reading

[zikduruqe]

Dr. Bronner's soap is good also.

DILUTE! DILUTE! OK!

[zargon]

If you sit on the toilet long enough to have time to look at your phone, you should probably address that.

[tapland]

If you never do, you’d hopefully be aware that it’s exceptional.

[eCa]

As an always-sitter, it’s always long enough.

[Exoristos]

Your tests may work on plebs, but I have a smartwatch.