[pjc50]

> what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled?

You can't track and control only immigrants. Any such system would include tracking and controls of citizens, simply in order to sort them into the "not immigrant" category.

Hence all the "papers please".

(Not to mention the false positive problem!)

[AnimalMuppet]

That is true, but it doesn't answer sQL_inject's point. You can't track and control only immigrants, therefore... what? Don't control immigrants at all, once they're here? Make it across the border and you're good forever? Or all, citizens or not, have to show papers to prove who they are?

I don't like either of those alternatives, but those seem to be the only options that are being advocated at the moment. Is there a better option?

And if not, are you really content to advocate for one of those two options? (Either of those two options? Because personally, no, I am not willing to advocate for either one.)

[ben_w]

There is no other (let alone better) option — those cover all possibilities.

If you don't check papers (or an equivalent), you automatically don't control immigrants at all once they're in your borders. To control them requires everyone has an ID, because otherwise some immigrant who doesn't want to have ID for whatever reason can just say "of course I don't have papers, only immigrants have papers and I'm not an immigrant".

The entire point of papers is to determine if someone is or isn't in some category (including but not limited to "immigrant").

What you can do is automate ID checks. So long as you don't mind your ID being tested at random, and the way that such systems have a tendency to randomly fail and deport people who were actually allowed to remain.

[mlsu]

It’s pretty simple, verify on the employer side. The fact that they are not doing this tells you all you need to know about how genuine this “immigration crackdown”is from a policy side.

It’s purely about terrorizing people and expanding the power of ICE. Citizens and non-citizens.

[alex43578]

Surprise, you’re already tracked in a dozen harmless ways that enable modern life: drivers license, Social Security number, birth certificate, etc; even before you get into quasi-public records like credit reporting, bank accounts, and insurance.

Acting like showing ID to an immigration official is some unprecedented intrusion is absurd. Fly domestically, shop at Costco, or buy a 6 pack of beer and you’ll end up showing more “papers” than a typical interaction with Customs/ICE, assuming you’re not illegal.

[ceejayoz]

I can not shop at Costco, not buy beer, and not fly.

I can't not interact with law enforcement, which is why we have things like the Fourth Amendment to protect us in those non-consensual scenarios.

[alex43578]

And you are protected. These are not unreasonable searches.

[ceejayoz]

I am not obligated to carry papers as a citizen.

If I answer "yep, I'm a citizen", and ICE says at one of the internal checkpoints "well we don't believe you, prove it", what now?

[alex43578]

If ICE has probable cause to believe you are an alien and don’t have the necessary documents, you could be detained or arrested.

If ICE doesn’t have probable cause to believe you’re an alien, you’re free to go.

Things could be different based on state-level stop and identify statutes when interacting with state LEO.

[ceejayoz]

> If ICE doesn’t have probable cause to believe you’re an alien, you’re free to go.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-ice-detained-c...

"In 2017, Stevens began studying cases like Watson’s, combing through court records for instances of ICE detainees being released after the government acknowledged they were citizens. She connected with dozens, including many who had been deported before the government could correct its error, and who got in touch with her from other countries. 'This is happening all the time,' she says. In her study, she found that, on average, U.S. citizens detained by ICE spent 180 days behind bars. Deportation is always a real possibility. At a mass removal hearing she attended, Stevens remembers the judge declaring that all 50 defendants would be deported; as the bailiff cleared the room, a man stood up and shouted, 'I thought I’d have a chance to speak to a judge!'"

"It took years, but eventually the BIA, even with the naturalization papers in front of them, denied his request for a stay, concluding the government could deport him. The court’s argument was arcane: It maintained that Watson couldn’t prove his father had custody of him when he was naturalized."

"A court would eventually rule that Watson had been wrongfully imprisoned. But the statute of limitations to sue the government began the day he got locked in ICE detention; it had passed by the time he was released."

[sethammons]

innocent til proven guilty. This is a core tenant. To not believe such is firmly unamerican.

[komali2]

Genuine question: Are you a communist, or perhaps a member of a former communist state? What you're discussing is how Americans perceive the Soviets or the Maoists, it doesn't really align with American values as I grew up understanding them.

"Show me your papers" is not something I think most Americans think is acceptable to be asked of them.

[alex43578]

Excepting “sovereign citizens”, most Americans comply when asked to show ID on a traffic stop, their passport at customs, a drivers license when renting a car, or even ID when swiping a credit card at Walmart.

Do you think all Americans are just running around bartering for corn with bullets? Showing ID when engaging in modern society has become common - except when voting, of course, oddly enough :P

[komali2]

> most Americans comply when asked to show ID on a traffic stop

It's not just sovereign citizens asserting their rights to not identify themselves out of turn to a cop. You're right that cops in America are becoming increasingly authoritarian and trying to intimidate people into giving up their rights, but check out any youtube channel that's essentially just a reuploader for full cop chest cam videos, and almost every encounter with a cop has people pushing back on unlawful search and seizure.

Anyway, your examples are all not exactly good faith, since we were discussing random "show me your papers" stops, which is what ICE has started doing. Needing to prove you have a legal right to drive is relatively uncontroversial. As for showing your passport at a random DHS stop, I've refused every time (over 20 times, I'm a Texan), and everyone I know does as well, and we're certainly not sovereign citizens. "I'm an American citizen, thank you." On my way. They're completely used to it so I know we aren't outliers.

> even ID when swiping a credit card at Walmart.

I've never had to do this lol, not sure what this is about, but again irrelevant when discussing government overreach.

> Do you think all Americans are just running around bartering for corn with bullets?

Ok, this might be a rural American thing, but, yes, many people are basically doing this. Maybe this is just a Texan thing but there's whole ass grey market economies around this.

IDK man maybe we just roll in different circles, maybe it's a redneck thing, but my perception of American values is hot rodding cars so as to escape the cops, not welcoming federal agents into your city to deport your neighbor that watches your kid when you gotta run to the post office real quick, just cause of some frivolous bullshit paperwork.

[sQL_inject]

We're being downvoted but no one has offered answers to my question.

In an advanced society where citizens are tracked, and receive the benefits of that tracking, why is it somehow okay for others to not be yet to reap the benefits? Why should others immigrate the 'proper way' if one can simply walk across? I can wait until anyone here who defends the lawlessness of the past ways answers.

[sethammons]

the solution is trivial. It is easy. We've whitnessed it several times. Illegal immigration follows jobs. When the economy does poorly, less people come across. I recall a few years ago, they said it was negative immigration! More people were leaving because jobs were hard to get.

Instead of letting the economy do the work, simply enforce the laws we already have on the books. Don't let employers employ non-verified citizens.

The problem is that a common sense solution solves the problem and removes a platform for politicians to yell about and continue to do nothing over.

Step one: enforce labor laws. Step two, watch the system drain itself. Step three, look to naturalize and or remove those left behind.