[antisol]

> The reason X "just worked" is that it's very bad

Yeah, sure, most bad software "just works", and there's nothing contradictory about this statement at all.

> High DPI, multiple monitors, hot-plugging, OpenGL

Of these 4 examples, I have literally never had any problems with 75% of them since at least 2008 - maybe 1999 - they all "just work". And I've never tried to do the other one, it may or may not.

You can argue about how old == bad as much as you like. Meanwhile I'll be getting work done using the bad old tech, rather than trying to debug the new broken thing.

> So what if my thunderbolt dock needed a reboot to connect a monitor?

Well if you needed to reboot, i.e restarting X didn't solve it, then that sounds like it's not an X problem at all. Maybe something in the USB stack.

> So what... So what... So what...

So what if the new thing people are trying to force on us doesn't support features we've enjoyed using for decades and use every day to get work done? So what if I've been using network transparency just fine for over a quarter century? So what if the new protocol doesn't support really basic things like screen savers properly? So what if it's suddenly a problem if an application has multiple windows, or wants to record the screen, or automate desktop usage, or reparent some other program, or have a not-rectangular window?

[const_cast]

I'm talking about very, very basic features like changing input/output at runtime, graphics acceleration, and scaling.

These are janky on X. I'm sorry, they are and we all know it, across many drivers, not just nvidia.

Yes, Wayland is missing some very niche usecases. For my money, I'd rather be able to plug in a monitor without a restart than have a "not-rectangular window". If your priorities are different then fine, I can't argue with lived experience.

Also, for the record, some X "features" were always a bad idea. The whole "every application being to record everything at any time with no permission model" isn't a feature, it's just a vulnerability. Yes, that means we now have to be much more deliberate with how we control these things, so we have popups and portals and whatnot. But that is actually a big improvement from the alternative, which is every application comes with a built-in free keylogger and screenlogger that you're just kind of hoping nobody is using for nefarious purposes.

[antisol]

> I'm talking about very, very basic features

Some people would consider the ability to record the screen or run a screensaver - like we've been able to since the 1980s - to be a "very, very basic feature"

> I'd rather be able to plug in a monitor without a restart

I'm not sure what you're not doing that I'm doing, but like I indicated before and you ignored, I've been hotplugging monitors for like 15 years. I've literally never had to reboot to plug in a monitor as far as I can recall. At worst I have to set the resolution. And if you do have to reboot, that doesn't sound like a problem with X.

> Also, for the record, some X "features" were always a bad idea (blablabla)

Sorry, did someone say X was perfect? Maybe I missed that post.

The point being made is that X works. Today. And has for decades. Meanwhile, as I mentioned earlier, wayland is over a decade overdue at this point. And still hasn't solved enough very basic issues that I was able to use it for more than about 15 minutes without running into trouble.

[const_cast]

The problem with "X works" type arguments is that, no, no it doesn't, not generally, and when it does it only does so because it gets maintained.

Software rots, period. It doesn't matter how perfect the software is because everything else changes. X hasn't been "just working" for 15 years like you claim as if it's some magic piece of software. No... it's been actively and meticulously maintained for 15 years. It's sort of like saying my Honda Accord with 500K miles just works. Yeah... sort of.

If nobody wants to maintain it, then yeah it won't work at all and that will happen pretty quickly. Because they're dependent on user land, and drivers, and graphics APIs, and those are all moving targets.

Maybe this maintenance will work out and X will live. I highly, highly doubt, but maybe.

[antisol]

Wow, someone has really been chugging on that kool-aid.

> The problem with "X works" type arguments is that, no, no it doesn't, not generally

So, to summarise: what you're saying, in a thread where I demonstrated and you yourself said that X "just works", is that suddenly it doesn't now.

Well I'll be sure to tell my laptop, it's got this thing where it's super stable for weeks at a time. Maybe my laptop hearing that actually it's DE doesn't work and that I imagined all those times I hotplugged my projector is what is needed to magically make wayland usable in the real world.

---

Bwahahahahaha!

So I did about 5 minutes of searching, and found: https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/NVIDIA

  Accelerated Xwayland clients (GLX)
  There is currently no accelerated GLX support when running a GNOME Wayland session no top of the NVIDIA drivers, meaning X11 OpenGL applications will use software rendering.

and:

  Mode setting
  Mode setting is possible, but the current requirement to use dumb buffers during mode setting before establishing the EGLSurface, EGLDevice CRTC stream link, results in memory constraint issues with multiple monitors with higher resolutions.


  Monitor mirroring
  Monitor mirroring is currently not possible due to the issue that an EGLSurface can only be linked to a single CRTC. The way GNOME Shell currently does monitor mirroring relies on passing the same hardware buffer to multiple CRTCs, which is currently not supported by the API exposed by the NVIDIA driver.

...Which is just a hilarious, hilarious joke. So in other words, wayland is a complete non-starter for any serious use. But I suppose, to be fair, you won't have to worry about that issue you claim is with X where you say you need to reboot to plug in a second monitor: you just can't have a second monitor! Not if you want it mirrored, or at "higher resolutions"

Hey, just for fun: I bet you can't guess which windowing system has supported all these things for decades?

One more fun one, from: https://www.xfce.org/about/tour420

  "Plans are underway to add Wayland support to Xfwm4 while preserving its existing X11 functionality. However, such a restructurization will be a major effort and we cannot tell yet when/if it will be done, so please don't hold your breath waiting for it."

Lol, yep, it's X that doesn't "just work", hahahahaha.

(and no, I wouldn't be holding my breath, would I, given that wayland has now been in development longer than Duke Nukem Forever)

I think we're about done here.

> If nobody wants to maintain it

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44207353

[ChocolateGod]

Everything you listed has worked for years and the site is outdated, it even mentions as such.

> This site has been retired. For up to date information, see handbook.gnome.org or gitlab.gnome.org.

If you're going to link from a site, try read it first.

[const_cast]

At this point I think you're just arguing in bad faith and you have some strange ideological reasons to cling to X.

As I've already said, if this maintenance effort works out, then great! You, and maybe some other's, can continue to use X and the world will be happy.

I doubt that's going to be the case, but I do actually wish you the best of luck.

[overboard2]

Debates, especially on highly subjective issues, will not always be resolved quickly and definitively in the absence of bad faith. That "ideological reasons" you're sensing is the worldview of the person you're talking to.

[antisol]

Sure, ok.

> some strange ideological reasons to cling to X.

"It works" == "strange ideological reasons"

...And you claim I'm the one arguing in bad faith, lol.

You might want to look up "projection".

> I do actually wish you the best of luck.

Yep, and good luck - sincerely - getting wayland to a usable state. Who knows, maybe in another decade or two it'll be worth revisiting

[KerrAvon]

now do HDR