[mlsu]

I suspect that these "AI layoffs" are really "interest rate" layoffs in disguise.

Software was truly truly insane for a bit there. Straight out of college, no-name CS degree, making $120, $150k (back when $120k really meant $120k)? The music had to stop on that one.

[spamizbad]

Yeah, my spiciest take is that Jr. Dev salaries really started getting silly during the 2nd half of the 2010s. It was ultimately supply (too little) and demand (too much) pushing them upward, but it was a huge signal we were in a bubble.

[LPisGood]

As someone who entered the workforce just after this, I feel like I missed the peak. A ton if those people got boatloads of money, great stock options, and many years of experience that they can continue to leverage for excellent positions.

[trade2play]

I joined in 2018.

Honestly it was 10 years too late. The big innovations of the 2010 era were maturing. I’ve spent my career maintaining and tweaking those, which does next to zero for your career development. It’s boring and bloated. On the bright side I’ve made a lot of money and have no issues getting jobs so far.

[Aeolun]

I think my career started in 2008? That was a great time to start for the purpose of learning, but a terrible one for compensation. Basically nobody knew what they were doing, and software wasn’t the ticket to free money that it became later yet.

[dustingetz]

data engineering was free money for nothing at all circa 2014, they got paid about 1.5x a fullstack application developer for .5x the work because frontend/ui work was considered soft, unworthy

[lurking_swe]

there’s always interesting work out there. It just doesn’t always align with ethical values, good salary, or work life balance. There’s always a trade off.

For example think of space x, Waymo, parts of US national defense, and the sciences (cancer research, climate science - analyzing satellite images, etc). They are doing novel work that’s certainly not boring!

I think you’re probably referring to excitement and cutting edge in consumer products? I agree that has been stale for a while.

[idkwhattocallme]

Don't worry, there is always another bubble on the horizon

[nyarlathotep_]

The irony now is that 120k is basically minimum wage for major metros (and in most cases that excludes home ownership).

Of course, that growth in wages in this sector was a contributing factor to home/rental price increases as the "market" could bear higher prices.

[rekenaut]

I feel that saying "120k is basically minimum wage for major metros" is absurd. As of 2022, there are only three metro areas in the US that have a per capita income greater than $120,000 [1] (Bay Area and Southwest Connecticut). Anywhere else in the US, 120k is doing pretty well for yourself, compared to the rest of the population. The average American working full time earns $60k [2]. I'm sure it's not a comfortable wage in some places, but "basically minimum wage" just seems ignorant.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropol...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

[lamename]

I disagree. Your data doesnt make the grandparent's assertion false. Cost of living != per capita or median income. Factoring in sensible retirement, expensive housing, inflation, etc, I think the $120k figure may not be perfect, but is close enough to reality.

[BlueTemplar]

Since when "minimum wage" means "sensible retirement" ?

More like it means ending up with government-provided bare minimum handouts to not have you starve (assuming you somehow manage to stay on minimum wage all your life).

[lamename]

We agree, minimum wage doesnt mean that. And in a large metro area, that's why $120k is closer to min wage than a good standard of lliving and building retirement.

[tekla]

Absolutely absurd. I lived in NYC making well less than that for years and was perfectly comfortable.

The "min wage" of HN seems to be "living better than 98% of everyone else"

[nyarlathotep_]

Correct, I mean in the sense of "living a standard of life that my parents and friends parents (all of very, very modest means) had 20 years ago when I was a teenager."

I mean a real wage associated with standards of living that one took for granted as "normal" when I was young.

[impossiblefork]

It actually is basically minimum wage for major metros.

If I took a job for ~100k in Washington, I'd live worse than I did as a PhD student in Sweden. It would basically suck. I'm not sure ~120k would make things that different.

[nyarlathotep_]

Yep exactly. I mean "maintaining a basic material standard of living that even non 'high-earners' had twenty years ago"

The erosion of the standard of living in the US (and the West more broadly) is not something to be ignored in any discussion of wages.

[alephnerd]

CoL in London or Dublin is comparable to much of the US, but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range.

The issue is salary expectations in the US are much higher than those in much of Western Europe despite having similar CoL.

And $120k for a new grad is only a tech specific thing. Even new grad management consultants earn $80-100k base, and lower for other non-software roles and industries.

[ponector]

I've seen recently an open position for senior dev with 60k salary and hybrid 3 days per week in London. Insane!

[alephnerd]

Yep. And costs are truly insane in Greater London. Bay Area level housing prices and Boston level goods prices, but Mississippi or Alabama level salaries.

But that's my point - salaries are factored based on labor market demands and comparative performance of your macroeconomy (UK high finance and law salaries are comparable with the US), not CoL.

[lurk2]

> Boston level goods prices

I’ve never been to Boston. Why are the prices high there?

[tilne]

They keep throwing the tea in the harbah

[zelphirkalt]

I mean, seeing an open position does not equal that position ever being filled. It can also likely be a fake position, trying to create the "we are growing and hiring!" impression, or mandated by law to be there, but made artificially worse, because they have someone internally, that they want to move to the position.

[FirmwareBurner]

>but new grad salaries are in the $30-50k range

But in UK an Ireland they get free healthcare, paid vacation, sick leave and labor protections, no?

[alephnerd]

The labor protections are basically ignored (you will be expected to work off the clock hours in any white collar role), and the free healthcare portion gets paid out of employer's pockets via taxes so it comes out the same as a $70-80k base (and associated taxes) would in much of the US.

There's a reason you don't see new grad hiring in France (where they actually try to enforce work hours), and they have a subsequently high youth unemployment rate.

Though even these new grad roles are at risk to move to CEE, where their administrations are giving massive tax holidays on the tune of $10-20k per employee if you invest enough.

And the skills gap I mentioned about CS in the US exists in Weatern Europe as well. CEE, Israel, and India are the only large tech hubs that still treat CS as an engineering disciple instead of as only a form of applied math.

[lazyasciiart]

> The labor protections are basically ignored (you will be expected to work off the clock hours in any white collar role),

I happen to have a sibling in consulting who was seconded from London to New York for a year, doing the same work for the same company, and she found the work hours in NY to be ludicrously long (and not for a significant productivity gain: more required time-at-desk). So there are varying levels of "expected to work off the clock hours".

[0xpgm]

What is the difference between treating CS as an engineering discipline vs a branch of applied math?

[kilpikaarna]

(According to this guy apparently) low level vs algorithms focus. CE or CS basically.

[__turbobrew__]

> free healthcare

I pay over 40% effective tax rate. Healthcare is far from free.

[FirmwareBurner]

But your health problems won't bankrupt you or make you homeless I presume.

[GoatInGrey]

The vast majority of Americans, who carry health insurance, also will not be bankrupted by health problems. Though they will earn far greater amounts of money for their families by working in the US compared to the UK.

[rcpt]

Maybe the EU is different but in the US there's no software engineering union. Our wages are purely what the market dictates.

Think they're too high? You're free to start a company and pay less.

[bravesoul2]

Yeah 120k is the maximum I have earned over 20 years in the industry. I started off circa. 40k maybe that's 70k adj for inflation. Not in US.

[lostlogin]

It’s always going to be difficult to compare countries. Things like healthcare, housing, childcare, schooling, taxes and literally every single thing are going to differ.

[bravesoul2]

The arbitrage is when you are young and healthy get that US salary and save then retreat home in your 40s and 50s. Stay healthy of course.

[adaptbrian]

Lots of tech folks get burnt out without knowing it. If you're tired all the time drastically alter your diet, it could change your life for the better.

[foobiekr]

To what?

[catigula]

That really only happened in HCOL areas.

[bravesoul2]

HCOL wasn't the driver though. It is abundance of investment and desire to hire. If the titans could collude to pay engineer half as much, they would. They tried.

[xp84]

Sure, but there was a massive concentration of such people in those areas.