[cyberax]

ZWave is the most stable radio-based standard right now. It's not great, and it's not very extensible, but it's OK-ish. There's one hackable device: https://z-uno.z-wave.me/technical/ but its SDK is not that great.

Pure ZigBee is... spotty because there are no certification requirements. Matter is stuck in development hell, but is slowly getting better.

And the problem with WiFi is energy efficiency (or a lack thereof) compared to ZWave/ZigBee/Thread.

So far, I've tried probably most of the home radio standards. Lutron was the most reliable, but it's also super-proprietary. My next house will just have conduits with low-voltage cables running to all the light switches, so I can use something like KNX instead of the radio-based stuff.

[hardwaresofton]

> And the problem with WiFi is energy efficiency (or a lack thereof) compared to ZWave/ZigBee/Thread.

This is a problem I'd really like to solve the old fashioned way/I think it prevents too much building. Energy density, rechargability, etc are like CPU speed to me -- it will eventually be solved, and I can deal with replacing a device every month or swapping a rechargable battery (especially if the device can tell me it's low).

I really do think it will be Thread+Wifi routers that eventually get a built-in Thread antenna that win (at least wining me over).

If either ZWave or ZigBee had managed to get into the home router space, they would have won already IMO. There are probably annoying reasons they couldn't until now.

> So far, I've tried probably most of the home radio standards. Lutron was the most reliable, but it's also super-proprietary. My next house will just have conduits with low-voltage cables running to all the light switches, so I can use something like KNX instead of the radio-based stuff.

Thanks for sharing this and your other experience!

Also TIL KNX.

[cyberax]

> I really do think it will be Thread+Wifi routers that eventually get a built-in Thread antenna that win (at least wining me over).

That actually had been the case for a while. A lot of WiFi routers had a built-in Thread (ZigBee) radio, but then nobody actually used them and the manufacturers stopped bothering with them. So now pretty much only Eero access points still have it.

> Also TIL KNX.

My dream is to have _actuated_ switches, that have full tactile feedback. So that the paddle will physically flip when switched remotely.

I commissioned an engineering company to look into that, but apparently this is not feasible at all with the NEC and UL requirements in the US. The only way is to use low voltage wiring to the switches and then use them to control line-voltage relays. This kind of system is popular in Europe, so you might as well just go with something like KNX.

[XorNot]

Hang on I'm curious: why can't such a thing be built with a wifi/other radio in it?

[cyberax]

The UL requires a switch to be able to physically break the connection in a way that can't be actuated remotely. So the switch will need an additional physical cutoff switch. Which is funny, but workable.

The deal killer is the power dissipation requirement. A solenoid, both compact and powerful enough to actuate the paddle, will dissipate too much power if it gets stuck in the "on" state. And a small geared motor is not acceptable because the switch has to be bi-stable and can't be allowed to get stuck in the middle.

So if you do an integrated device, the paddle will just end up being an input device, rather than an actual current-interrupting component. And there just isn't a lot of space inside a switch for everything without going into Apple-like engineering.

[XorNot]

But that would be fine. The biggest problem is not whether a relay in the switch would fail or not, it's that you want the wall switch position to be tactile and to reflect the state of the switch.

[cyberax]

Yes, it might be possible, but also expensive. But there just isn't a lot of space available to support both a good tactile feedback, and to be able to interrupt the line voltage. There are requirements for high-low voltage separation that are difficult to meet, while staying within the allowed size for a switch.

Since I'm doing it for myself, I will selfishly just do a low-voltage system :) But I'm seriously considering funding a startup to do engineering for an integrated version.

The closest thing that I found to a _good_ smart dimmer was https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Zwave-Zks31-Knob-Dimm... (ZKS-31). It has a physical knob as a control, and it only misses the visual indication of the current state and simulated detents.

I'm really at a loss why nobody else is trying to do something like this, while doing crap like touch-sensitive switches with LED displays.

[hardwaresofton]

> That actually had been the case for a while. A lot of WiFi routers had a built-in Thread (ZigBee) radio, but then nobody actually used them and the manufacturers stopped bothering with them. So now pretty much only Eero access points still have it.

Thanks for this context -- when I searched I only found "thread border routers" -- I couldn't find a router made by a well known brand that included thread functionality -- it always seemed to be "buy a router AND buy a thread border router".

Really surprised that I missed the wave on this and wonder if it was a "we want people to buy two things" rather than no one actually using it. Maybe I just have to wait for it to come back around?

Maybe the answer here is a USB powered device with an extra 2.4Ghz radio (running like.. OpenThread or whatever I need to do thread over an available antenna?) attached to the router?

What I don't understand is why I just use the existing router's 2.4Ghz antenna for this? The amount of confusion in the space and inability of devices to do multiple things is really annoying, to be frank. I can only surmise the reason this stuff is not easy/obvious is profit-incentive (outside of the difficulty of designing good standards of course!).

[EDIT] OK, so the antennas aren't the same, despite being the same frequency -- clearly this is to ensure speedy operation at the hardware level.

So the add-on antenna would probably work if I bought some parts from mouser:

https://eu.mouser.com/c/passive-components/antennas/?protoco...

[EDIT2] Nope, more confused. Multi-protocol antennas exist. Why is this not a set-and-forget option for all the routers??? Someone clue me in to the politics/power struggle or whatever the real reason is here. And then connected + taped something to my router.

[cyberax]

> Really surprised that I missed the wave on this and wonder if it was a "we want people to buy two things" rather than no one actually using it. Maybe I just have to wait for it to come back around?

It's worse. There are _no_ new stand-alone Thread Border Routers on the market. You might find old stock of GL.iNet routers, and I believe there were a couple of other experimental devices.

If you want a robust Matter network, your best bet is to use Apple or Google devices as border routers. Or you can use a USB ZigBee stick with HomeAssistant.

> [EDIT2] Nope, more confused. Multi-protocol antennas exist. Why is this not a set-and-forget option for all the routers???

No market demand, so router manufacturers just don't bother. The initial versions of Matter were a burning trash fire.

[hardwaresofton]

Thanks for the color here -- sad but I get it.

Sounds like we're almost there and Zigbee/Thread are at least supportable with the same hardware. I can work with that I guess!

> No market demand, so router manufacturers just don't bother. The initial versions of Matter were a burning trash fire.

I remember hearing about this -- they fixed/improved it eventually but I guess the damage was done.

[spott]

That is an expensive dev board for something like this…

Here is a esp32-h2 with thread and zigbee support for $5-$12

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMfZEsX

I figure support for something like this is likely to increase faster than a $70+ board.