[WuxiFingerHold]

> IMO any system where taking a dependency is "easy" and there is no penalty for size or cost is going to eventually lead to a dependency problem.

Go and C# (.NET) are counterexamples. They both have great ecosystems and just as simple and effective package management as Rust or JS (Node). But neither Go or C# have issues with dependency hell like Rust or even more JavaScript, because they have exceptional std libs and even large frameworks like ASP.NET or EF Core.

A great std lib is obviously the solution. Some Rust defenders are talking it down by giving Python as counter example. But again, Go and C# are proving them wrong. A great std lib is a solution, but one that comes with huge efforts that can only be made by large organisations like Google (Go) or Microsoft (C#).

[athrowaway3z]

No it doesn't.

A large stdlib solves the problems the language is focused on. For C# and Go that is web hosts.

Try using them outside that scope and the dependencies start to pile in (Games, Desktop) or they are essentially unused (embedded, phones, wasm)

[Xeoncross]

> A large stdlib solves the problems the language is focused on

That's part of it, but it also solves the problem of vetting. When I use a Go stdlib I don't have to personally spend time to vet it like it do when looking at a crate or npm package.

In general, Go & Rust packages on github are high quality to begin with, but there is still a pronounced difference between OS packages and what is approved to be part of the language's own stdlib.

It's nice to know thousands of different companies already found the issues for me or objected to them in reviews before the library was published.

[dgb23]

“Web server” is a pretty big use case though.

But I agree that graphics is often overlooked in std libs. However that’s a bit of a different beast. Std libs typically deal with what the OS provides. Graphics is its own world so to speak.

As for Wasm: first, that’s a runtime issue and not a language issue. I think GC is on the roadmap for Wasm. Second, Go and C# obviously predate Wasm.

In the end, not every language should be concerned with every use case. The bigger question is whether it provides a std lib for the category of programs it targets.

To take a specific example: JS isn’t great at efficiently and conveniently generating dynamic HTML. You can go far without (or minimal) dependencies and some clever patterns. But a lot of pain and work hours would have been saved if it had something that people want to use out of the box.

[ffsm8]

> “Web server” is a pretty big use case though.

You don't consider games, desktop and mobile applications big use cases, each being multi billion industries?

I don't know man, I feel like you're arguing in bad faith and are intentionally ignoring what the athrowaway3z said: it works there because they're essentially languages specifically made to enable web development . That's why their standard lib is plenty for this domain.

I can understand that web development might be the only thing you care about though, it's definitely a large industry - but the thesis of a large standard lib solving the dependency issue really isnt true, as (almost) every other usecase beyond web development shows.

[dgb23]

> but the thesis of a large standard lib solving the dependency issue really isnt true, as (almost) every other usecase beyond web development shows.

I don't think the dependency issue can be solved by a good std lib, but it certainly can be mitigated as some languages show.

I think JS is a very pronounced case study here.

[nicce]

Web is likely bigger than all of those together. And large part of mobile and desktop apps depends on the web tech these days.

[galangalalgol]

Specifically those languages are back end focused so about 28% of developers. 55 focus on front end. If you add up games desktop and mobile, oddly you get 28% as well. So not bigger but the same size good intuition! That leaves out embedded 8% and systems (8-12%). Which are probably more what rust is used for. There is obviously overlap and we haven't mentioned database or scientific programming at 12 and 5 percent respectively.

Edit: after rereading this I feel like I may have come across sarcastic, I was legitimately impressed a guess without looking it up would peg the ratio that closely. It was off topic as a response too. So I'll add that rust never would have an asynch as good as tokio, or been able to have asynch in embedded as with embassy, if it hadn't opted for batteries excluded. I think this was the right call given its initial focus as a desktop/systems language. And it is what allowed it to be more than that as people added things. Use cargo-deny, pin the oldest version that does what you need and doesn't fail cargo deny. There are several hundred crates brought in by just the rust lang repo, if you only vet things not in that list, you can save some time too.

[mort96]

"Web server" is, more or less, about converting a database into JSON and/or HTML. There are complexities there, sure, but it's not like it's some uniquely monumental undertaking compared to other fields.

[dgb23]

Not all web servers deal in HTML or JSON, many don't have databases outside of managing their internal state.

Even ignoring that, those are just common formats. They don't tell you what a particular web server is doing.

Take a few examples of some Go projects that either are web servers or have them as major components like Caddy or Tailscale. Wildly different types of projects.

I guess one has to expand "web server" to include general networking as well, which is definitely a well supported use case or rather category for the Go std lib, which was my original point.

[andybak]

> Web server" is, more or less, about converting a database into JSON and/or HTML

You seem to have a very different definition of "web server" to me.

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

Just to explain this confusion, the term “web server” typically refers specifically to software that is listening for HTTP requests, such as apache or nginx. I would use the term “application server” to refer to the process that is processing requests that the web server sends to it. I read “web server” in their comment as “application server” and it makes sense.

[andybak]

Yes. That's the same distinction I would expect. Although I'm not sure that the database stuff is the role I'd usually look for in the application server itself.

Maybe it's a language community thing.

[merb]

actually dotnet also does not need too many dependencies for games and desktop apps.

[Ygg2]

So it comes out of box with good renderers, physics engines, localization, input controllers and in-game GUIs?

[Const-me]

The libraries you listed are too specialized. And they require integration with asset pipeline which is well outside of scope of a programming language.

As for the generic things, I think C# is the only mainstream language which has small vectors, 3x2 and 4x4 matrices, and quaternions in the standard library.

[bob1029]

> I think C# is the only mainstream language which has small vectors, 3x2 and 4x4 matrices, and quaternions in the standard library.

They've got SIMD-accelerated methods for calculating 3d projection matrices. No other ecosystem is even close once you start digging into the details.

[cyber_kinetist]

To be fair, there is no language that has a framework that contains all of these things... unless you're using one of the game engines like Unity/Unreal.

If you're willing to constrain yourself to 2D games, and exclude physics engines (assume you just use one of the Box2D bindings) and also UI (2D gamedevs tend to make their own UI systems anyway)... Then your best bet in the C# world is Monogame (https://monogame.net/), which has lots of successful titles shipped on desktop and console (Stardew Valley, Celeste)

[Ygg2]

> To be fair, there is no language that has a framework that contains all of these things.

Depends. There is Godot Script. Seeing how it comes with a game engine.

But original claim was

    > actually dotnet also does not need too many dependencies for games and desktop apps.

If you're including languages with big game engines. It's a tautology. Languages with good game engines, have good game engines.

But general purpose programming language has very little to gain from including a niche library even if it's the best in business. Imagine if C++ shipped with Unreal.

[7bit]

Those are extremely specialized dependencies. Whereas in Rust, we talk about e.g. serde, which is included in the std libs for many major languages

Are you really trying to compare serde to rendering engines?

[zahlman]

>A great std lib is obviously the solution. Some Rust defenders are talking it down by giving Python as counter example.

Python's standard library is big. I wouldn't call it great, because Python is over 30 years old and it's hard to add things to a standard library and even harder to remove them.

[notpushkin]

There are things added from tine to time, but yeah, some stuff in there just feels dated at this point.

I’m still hoping we can get a decently typed argparse with a modern API though (so much better for tiny scripts without deps!)

[voidnap]

I'm thankful argparse exists in pythons stdlib. But argument parsing is not that hard especially for simpler programs. programmers should be able to think for a minute and figure it out instead of always reaching for clap, thats how you get dependency hell.

Argument parsing, in partucular, is a great place to start realizing that you can implement what you need without adding a dozen dependencies

[fyrn_]

Hard disagree. Standardized flag parsing is a blessing on us all, do not want to jave to figure out what flag convention the author picked to implement of the many lile one does with non getopt c programs.

Don't disagree with the principle, there are a lot of trivial pythong deps, but rolling your own argument parsing is not the way

[voidnap]

Again, argument parsing is not that hard most of the time. You dont have to make your own conventions. Thats just weird.

If youve never thought about it, it might seem like you need an off-the-shelf dependency. But as programmers sometimes we should think a bit more before we make that decision.

[zahlman]

Argument parsing is absolutely the kind of thing where I'd reach for a third-party library if the standard library didn't provide (and in Python's case, maybe even then - argparse has some really unpleasant behaviours). When you look through library code, it might seem like way more than you'd write yourself, and it probably is. But on a conceptual level you'll probably actually end up using a big chunk of it, or at least see a future use for it. And it doesn't tend to pull in a lot of dependencies. (For example, click only needs colorama, and then only on Windows; and that doesn't appear to bring in anything transitively.)

It's a very different story with heavyweight dependencies like Numpy (which include reams of tests, documentation and headers even in the wheels that people are only installing to be a dependency of something else, and covers a truly massive range of functionality including exposing BLAS and LAPACK for people who might just want to multiply some small matrices or efficiently represent an image bitmap), or the more complex ones that end up bringing in multiple things completely unrelated to your project that will never be touched at runtime. (Rich supports a ton of wide-ranging things people might want to do with text in a terminal, and I would guess most clients probably want to do exactly one of those things.)

[FuckButtons]

You can, but there’s always a tradeoff, as soon as I’ve added about the 3rd argument, I always wish i had grabbed a library, because i’m not getting payed to reinvent this wheel.

[voidnap]

Sure. And thats how you get leftpad and dependency "supply chain" drama.

[LtdJorge]

Are you really comparing clap with leftpad?

[kokada]

While not everything in Python's stdlib is great (I am looking at you urllib), I would say most of it is good enough. Python is still my favorite language to get stuff done exactly because of that.

[nicce]

Maybe Python 4 will just remove stuff.

[zahlman]

My personal language design is strongly inspired by what I imagine a Python 4 would look like (but also takes hints from other languages, and some entirely new ideas that wouldn't fit neatly in Python).

[fiedzia]

> but neither Go or C# have issues with dependency hell like Rust or even more JavaScript, because they have exceptional std libs

They also have a lot narrower scope of use, which means it is easier to create stdlib usable for most people. You can't do it with more generic language.

[pjmlp]

I would say C# gets used almost everything at Microsoft between GUIs, backends, DirectX tooling (new PIX UI, Managed DirectX and XNA back in Creative Arcade days), Azure,..., alongside C++, and even if Microsoft <3 Rust, in much bigger numbers.

[djfivyvusn]

I didn't understand the embedded systems argument. Just because a standard lib is large doesn't mean it all ends up in the compilation target.

[kbolino]

Indeed, it has no bearing on binary size at all, because none of it will be included. If you are coming from the perspective where the standard library is entirely unusable to begin with, then improving the standard library is irrelevant at best. It also likely means that at least some time and effort will be taken away from improving the things that you can use to be spent on improving a bunch of things that you can't use.

I feel like this is an organizational problem much more than a technical one, though. Rust can be different things to different people, without necessarily forcing one group to compromise overmuch. But some tension is probably inevitable.

[thayne]

> Indeed, it has no bearing on binary size at all, because none of it will be included.

That depends on the language. In an interpreted language (including JIT), or a language that depends on a dynamically linked runtime (ex c and c++), it isn't directly included in your app because it is part of the runtime. But you need the runtime installed, and if your app is the only thing that uses that runtime, then the runtime size is effectively adds to your installation size.

In languages that statically link the standard library, like go and rust, it absolutely does impact binary size, although the compiler might use some methods to try to avoid including parts of the standard library that aren't used.

[kbolino]

Embedded Rust usually means no_std Rust, in which case no, neither the standard library nor any runtime to support it get included in the resulting binary. This isn't getting externalized either; no_std code simply cannot use any of the features that std provides. It is roughly equivalent to freestanding C.

What you say is true enough for external-runtime languages and Go, though TinyGo is available for resource-constrained environments.

[tialaramex]

Well, Rust's standard library has three components, named core, alloc and std

The no_std Rust only has core but this is indeed a library of code, and freestanding C does not provide such a thing = freestanding C stdlib provides no functions, just type definitions and other stuff which evaporates when compiled.

Two concrete examples to be going along with: Suppose we have a mutable foo, it's maybe foo: [i32; 40]; (forty 32-bit signed integers) or in C maybe they're int foo[40];.

In freestanding C that's fine, but we're not provided with any library code to do anything with foo, we can use the core language features to write it outselves, but nothing is provided.

Rust will happily foo.sort_unstable(); this is a fast custom in-place sort, roughly a modern form of introspective sort written for Rust by its creators and because it's in core, that code just goes into your resulting embedded firmware or whatever.

Now, suppose we want to perform a filter-map operation over that array. In C once again you're left to figure out how to write that in C, in Rust foo impl IntoIterator so you can use all the nice iterator features, the algorithms just get baked into your firmware during compilation.

[slashdev]

I don’t want a large std lib. It stifles competition and slows the pace of development. Let libraries rise and fall on their own merits. The std lib should limit itself to the basics.

[iTokio]

I think this is partially true, but more nuanced than just saying that Rust std lib is lacking.

Compared to go and c#, Rust std lib is mostly lacking:

- a powerful http lib

- serialization

But Rust approach, no Runtime, no GC, no Reflection, is making it very hard to provide those libraries.

Within these constraints, some high quality solutions emerged, Tokio, Serde. But they pioneered some novel approaches which would have been hard to try in the std lib.

The whole async ecosystem still has a beta vibe, giving the feeling of programming in a different language. Procedural macros are often synonymous with slow compile times and code bloat.

But what we gained, is less runtime errors, more efficiency, a more robust language.

TLDR: trade-offs everywhere, it is unfair to compare to Go/C# as they are languages with a different set of constraints.

[whstl]

I would say compared to other languages Rust feels even more lacking.

All those AFAIR need 3rd party packages:

Regex, DateTime, base64, argument parsing, url parsing, hashing, random number generation, UUIDs, JSON

I'm not saying it's mandatory, but I would expect all those to be in the standard library before there is any http functionality.

[okanat]

Having some of those libraries listed and then not being able to change API or the implementation is what killed modern C++ adoption (along with the language being a patchwork on top of C).

As some of the previous commenters said, when you focus your language to make it easy to write a specific type of program, then you make tradeoffs that can trap you in those constraints like having a runtime, a garbage collector and a set of APIs that are ingrained in the stdlib.

Rust isn't like that. As a system programmer I want none of them. Rust is a systems programming language. I wouldn't use Rust if it had a bloated stdlib. I am very happy about its stdlib. Being able to swap out the regex, datetime, arg parsing and encoding are a feature. I can choose memory-heavy or cpu-heavy implementations. I can optimize for code size or performance or sometimes neither/both.

If the trade-offs were made to appease the easy (web/app) development, it wouldn't be a systems programming language for me where I can use the same async concepts on a Linux system and an embedded MCU. Rust's design enables that, no other language's design (even C++) does.

If a web developer wants to use a systems programming language, that's their trade-off for a harder to program language. The similar type safety to Rust's is provided with Kotlin or Swift.

Dependency bloat is indeed a problem. Easy inclusion of dependencies is also a contributing factor. This problem can be solved by making dependencies and features granular. If the libraries don't provide the granularity you want, you need to change libraries/audit source/contribute. No free meals.

[mplanchard]

Yeah I’ve encountered the benefit of this approach recently when writing WASM binaries for the web, where binary size becomes something we want to optimize for.

The de facto standard regex library (which is excellent!) brings in nearly 2 MB of additional content for correct unicode operations and other purposes. The same author also makes regex-lite, though, which did everything we need, with the same interface, in a much smaller package. It made it trivial to toss the functionality we needed behind a trait and choose a regex library appropriately in different portions of our stack.

[whstl]

> Being able to swap out the regex, datetime, arg parsing and encoding are a feature

A feature present on every language that has those in the stdlib.

[mplanchard]

Not necessarily, when other components of the stdlib depend on them

[whstl]

Also not necessarily with third-party libraries.

[kouteiheika]

> All those AFAIR need 3rd party packages: Regex

Regex is not 3rd party (note the 'rust-lang' in the URL):

https://github.com/rust-lang/regex

[orphea]

3rd party relative to the standard library. In other words: not included.

[oddmiral]

Create a new library, name it as "Standard library", include and reexport al those libraries, profit.

[whstl]

This won't solve supply chain issues.

[oddmiral]

Linux distributions are built this way. Distro maintainers selects libraries and versions to include, to create solid foundation for apps.

[BrouteMinou]

Which still doesn't solve the supply chain issues...

[nicce]

> Procedural macros are often synonymous with slow compile times and code bloat.

In theory they should reduce it because you wouldn’t make proc macros to generate code you don’t need…right? How much coding time you save with macros compared to manually implementing them?

[neonsunset]

To be fair I think Rust has very healthy selection of options for both, with Serde and Reqwest/Hyper being de-facto standard.

Rust has other challenges it needs to overcome but this isn't one.

I'd put Go behind both C#/F# and Rust in this area. It has spartan tooling in odd areas it's expected to be strong at like gRPC and the serialization story in Go is quite a bit more painful and bare bones compared to what you get out of System.Text.Json and Serde.

The difference is especially stark with Regex where Go ships with a slow engine (because it does not allow writing sufficiently fast code in this area at this moment) where-as both Rust and C# have top of the line implementations in each which beat every other engine save for Intel Hyperscan[0].

[0]: https://github.com/BurntSushi/rebar?tab=readme-ov-file#summa... (note this is without .NET 9 or 10 preview updates)

[burntsushi]

> (because it does not allow writing sufficiently fast code in this area at this moment)

I don't think that's why. Or at least, I don't think it's straight-forward to draw that conclusion yet. I don't see any reason why the lazy DFA in RE2 or the Rust regex crate couldn't be ported to Go[1] and dramatically speed things up. Indeed, it has been done[2], but it was never pushed over the finish line. My guess is it would make Go's regexp engine a fair bit more competitive in some cases. And aside from that, there's tons of literal optimizations that could still be done that don't really have much to do with Go the language.

Could a Go-written regexp engine be faster or nearly as fast because of the language? Probably not. But I think the "implementation quality" is a far bigger determinant in explaining the current gap.

[1]: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/11646

[2]: https://github.com/matloob/regexp