[mikemcquaid]

I have 2 young kids, run a widely used open source project and a startup, eat dinner with my kids 6/7 nights a week and do this. Here’s some ways how:

My best friend comes over once a weekend and we watch the TV that my wife doesn’t want to.

I participate in a sport (powerlifting) where I’ve made friends and there’s room to socialise while exercising.

I chose to move back to my home town and also go to college there.

I go to metal gigs with friends when the kids are asleep.

I’m happily married, my wife is training for a marathon and sees friends too.

We pay for a cleaner.

Don’t know that this is 6.5 hours in person with friends every week but I’d say it’s at least a couple of hours each.

It’s doable, it just might require not doing some stuff you already do and enjoy. There’s a bunch of stuff I did pre-kids that I don’t any more and would like to find time for again one day.

[xiande04]

You just said all the things that you do while raising kids. What is it that you are doing differently that allows you to do all those things? Is it simply just a matter of hiring a cleaner?

Because otherwise, as the father of a 1 and 5 year old, I completely agree with OP and find your story unbelievable. Like OP I work/exercise/do chores from 6 am to 10 pm. I'm on HN right now only because it's Saturday and I'm relaxing.

[Aurornis]

I have kids in similar ages and I also find time with friends. Even on some weekdays.

> Like OP I work/exercise/do chores from 6 am to 10 pm.

I hear this a lot, but let’s be honest: You don’t need to exercise and do chores every single day for the entire time outside of work, do you? Would it be the end of the world if you met up with a friend one night instead of going to the gym? Could you invite a friend to the gym?

The house doesn’t need to be spotlessly cleaned every night. If you’re cooking dinner, switch to recipes that are easy to prepare and then double them so you can have leftovers.

It’s easy to get caught up in the whirlwind of doing things constantly until they expand and fill all of your time. Becoming more efficient and flexible about the things I did outside of work opened up a lot of free time.

[wonderwonder]

For me, I have to go to the gym. Its my only me thing. Taking someone to the gym sounds excruciating. For me the gym is all about disconnecting from everything requiring higher order thinking. Just loud music and heavy weights. Without that time I feel things would go very badly indeed.

The only time I really just spontaneously smile is during the walk from my car to the front door of the gym.

[mikemcquaid]

Make friends with people at the gym. Kills two birds with one stone.

Is this great for everyone? Nope. Is it better than having no friends? Probably.

[mikemcquaid]

You’re on HN because it’s Saturday and you’re relaxing. I’m in an Uber to go see some gym friends because my kids are in the bath and almost ready for bed. Another night this week: I’ll do the same for my wife.

Zero judgment here, genuinely, but: I keep hearing people say my life is impossible and it doesn’t seem like it.

[pentlego]

I think so much of this is mentality, which as a word really undersells the problem but I can't think of a better one. You and the other commenters are probably about equally busy, but you are able to see your various tasks and obligations as opportunities to invite your friends in or otherwise socialize. They see them as blockers where nothing else and especially not socializing can happen.

As a childless person with far more "free time" than either of you, I've fallen into the same trap. I build it up in my head that I'm "just too busy" and during my downtime I'm "too tired," but the reality is often that I've just lost the habit and fail to perceive the opportunities.

None of this is meant to undersell the problem. I don't think human beings evolved for this pervasive, isolated busyness, and I think a lot of societal dysfunction cascades from it. I think it has real, negative effects on our biology and psychology, and no one should be shamed for succumbing to those effects. But at the same time I don't think the situation is hopeless and I admire and aspire to your initiative and creativity, and I think the rest of us can get there too.

[chasd00]

Young kids are a different story but that doesn’t last forever. My kids are older, 13 and 15, and there’s a lot more time for personal interests and friends. Also, as kids get older you begin to have mutual interests. I’m watching/helping my 15 year old play an Indiana Jones game on his ps5 while typing this and have no desire to do anything else.

[treis]

Y'all sound like the people in an infomercial that can't pour juice without spilling it everywhere or they get egg in ridiculous places when they try to crack it. With dishwashers, instapots, roombas, microwaves, and so on modern life just isn't that hard. Or, more accurately, it's mostly as hard as you make it.

[1123581321]

You’re working too much and/or misorganized at home. Happens to many people. Unless you’re a single parent you can make a plan this weekend to at least alternate the days when someone has to do chores nonstop after work. I have kids those same ages.

[jjulius]

I'm similar to the person you are directly applying to. I also have a 5 and 3yo.

Unlike the first OP, I don't get involved with the PTA and we don't really email with the school at all. I don't understand the emailing constantly with school thing, but to each their own and I'm sure there's a valid reason for those that do.

We, like the person you're replying to, also pay for a cleaner, but that's for deep cleaning and only happens once every two weeks. I've somehow settled into a routine that has me doing basic cleaning right after dinner.

My wife and I share chores and swap out tasks evenly. This allows one of us to clean and have some "me" time while the other bathes the kids/does bedtime, before we meet together and hang out for a bit in the evening before bed. Sometimes during the week we'll have a friend over during this time. Our weekend hours are limited in the evenings, because I have to get up early for work, but we make it work.

On the weekends, we are good about balancing our fun time. Grandparents come over and watch the kids as we go out together, or, just for one example, my wife will handle dinner/bedtime (or breakfast, if I go to something dance-musicy that runs late) while I go out to a show. I'll do likewise for her if she wants to go out with friends.

Also on the weekends, we often meet up during the day with friends of ours who also have kids. We get to hang out with our friends while our kids play together.

Additionally, my work has a gym and my work schedule is earlier than most - 6 to 3PM. I work out before and after work, and then go pick my kiddos up, make dinner and play with them after cleaning. I also chose a job that insisted they prioritize family and work/life balance and I leaned into that, and they leaned back! No notifications hit my phone after 4PM and in the four years I've worked here, I have never had to work a weekend nor been pressured to do any work outside of when I'm at the office.

My wife is also super nice about letting me go on 3-4 day backpacking trips multiple times through the summer.

We prioritized finding some time for us for our own sanity, and kinda naturally settled into this schedule. It might not work for everyone, and I feel very fortunate to have space for us.

Edit: Don't get it twisted, though... I'm tired. I can't get a full 8 hours of sleep on a regular basis, closer to 7, sometimes a bit less. The daytimes are also constant in order to ensure we get time at the end. It's hard.

Edit 2: We also prioritized ensuring our kids were great sleepers from day one. They go down for bed anywhere between 7 and 8, and don't wake up until ~7AM. We're also very lucky in that they've never really come into our bedrooms in the middle of the night and stay in their beds until we get them in the mornings. I don't know how we got fortunate there, but /shrug.

[Aurornis]

> My wife and I share chores and swap out tasks evenly.

Having some give and take between parents makes such a big difference.

I think every time I’ve talked to friends who are new parents who complain about not having any free time ever, they eventually reveal some excessive rigidity in how they share the parenting load. Some parents try to have both parents involved in everything all the time. Some parents refuse to let the other parent handle a task like bedtime. Some parents let their kids get demanding about which parent does a task and they never push back on it. And of course some couples have one lazy parent who just doesn’t do the thing, leaving it to fall to the other parent.

There’s often a lightbulb moment when parents realize that there can be flexibility and trading back and forth between parents.

I once coached a young guy who was struggling at his job because his ~9 month old still wasn’t sleeping well. After some questions he revealed that both he and his wife were getting up with the baby every time and staying up together.

It took some convincing to break him of the notion that every interaction with the baby required two parents. Once they started staggering their sleep schedules and taking shifts during the night everything improved.

[mikemcquaid]

Good on you. Sounds like we have mostly made the same choices. It’s possible, even if some folks like to convince themselves it’s not.

[h2zizzle]

>We pay for a cleaner.

Buried lede.

[phil21]

Depending on where you live this is pretty affordable for even an average midwestern senior dev salary. Especially in a two income household. As in cut out daily Starbucks level affordable.

It’s the first “luxury” I pay for when able to right after air conditioning, and I did it even when I was single with a roommate.

Costs where I live are $200 or so twice a month to have my entire place cleaned top to bottom and I live in an above average sized house.

It’s not nothing, but it’s affordable enough to prioritize. The best thing you can buy with money is time, and I’ve found this is one of the largest RoI possible in terms of dollars per hours given back.

Others will prioritize different spending but overall I find it a better return than even taking a vacation.

[Retric]

5k/year is serious money. It’s affordable the way most things are affordable making it a priority over other things. IMO it’s low on the dollars per hour saved to use a regular cleaning service, where it’s worth it is you want a clean home and just don’t keep it up.

However, there’s significant diminishing returns on weekly or biweekly cleaning service vs monthly or by monthly. Especially if you can use a robotic vacuum and have decent air filtration.

[tayo42]

How does air filtration reduce the frequency of cleaning?

[h2zizzle]

Less dust and fewer particulates circulating and settling on surfaces.

[Retric]

Also, one of the major upsides of cleaning is to reduce dust, pollen, etc in the air. So things don’t get dirty as quickly and it matters less when they are dirty.

[Aurornis]

I don’t pay for a cleaner and still have plenty of time for friends.

I think people overestimate how much time a cleaner saves. It’s helpful if you can afford it but IMO it’s not the life-changing improvement that you hear about on Reddit and other places. Someone who comes once per week to spend an hour or two cleaning could give an hour or two back (usually not 1:1 because they clean deeper than you would yourself most times to show that a good job was done). It’s not going to make the difference between having tons of time to spend with your friends if your scheduled is already packed though. That is, unless you plan to pay for a daily cleaner which is a different level of expense.

[zeroonetwothree]

I have a 3x/week housekeeper and it means I practically don't clean at all, including tidying/putting things away. Costs around $15k/yr though, so not for everyone. I wouldn't do this if not for kids though.

[sgt]

I mean, with 3x/week or even 7x/week housekeeper you'll be cleaning something. Even Jeff Bezos probably wipes a plate clean once in a while, or makes a sandwich. They're not going to be right next to you 24/7.

[decimalenough]

24/7 live-in maids are quite common in places like Southeast Asia, India or the Middle East. And yes, 24/7 really means that: always on call.

[h2zizzle]

In many cases, it's slavery (immigrants whose documents have been taken away). Occasionally, you have tragedies occur, like the Kenyan woman who received 3rd degree burns over most of her body, and her family didn't know until she was shipped back home to die.

Extreme, but is that what we're aspiring to?

But then, it would be incorrect of me to say that I'm making a purely economic argument because I've clearly moved into making a value judgment. I think that's still valid though. Do we want to live in a country where wealthy people - or even just the well-off top half/three-fifths/whatever - expect never to have to clean up after themselves? We don't even have to ask what kind of society that creates, it's in our national memory.

[sgt]

But surely this person can still get some personal time and schedule it beforehand. Then if you want true 24/7 you need several.

[mikemcquaid]

£3.2k a year here. Most people on HN have tech jobs. I don’t drink coffee. I barely drink alcohol. I’ve never bought a new car. Again: it’s probably possible for many people here but some people prefer to convince themselves it’s impossible. Learned helplessness.

[toomuchtodo]

You have resources many parents don’t. Congrats on the luck (genuinely, no snark), but the median is having a much worse time.

https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressu...

[mikemcquaid]

I don’t live in the US so have no idea about that. I have friends who are parents who make below the median household income in the U.K. who make time for hobbies and socialising (including with me). Resources help but I know many people with far more resources than I who would say on forums like this my life is impossible.

[toomuchtodo]

UK specific data source:

Childless by choice becomes new normal for young UK adults, survey finds - https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240118/Childless-by-choi...

(touches on UK childcare as being a contributing factor)

[api]

If you moved from a high cost of living city back to your home town, how much did that have to do with it? In HCOL cities the crazy rent or mortgage costs keep everyone running and cut into discretionary funds for assistance.

[9rx]

The more interesting question is: If people in HCOL areas are so poor that they can't even afford to make time to bask in friendships with the people the city has to offer, why are they still there?

[api]

Usually to build career.

Most small towns and medium sized cities, at least in the USA, have a serious lack of stepping stone opportunities. There are low-paying service and entry level jobs and there are high paying jobs that require extensive experience. There is often nothing in between.

[em-bee]

shops are nearby, less or even no commute to work. access to public transport.

[9rx]

Doesn't that describe every cheap small town?

(Little public transport is needed as you can walk the whole town over, but there is usually transport to other towns)

[em-bee]

as the other comment says, small towns don't have good jobs. so you still have the commute to bigger ones with the jobs. also i forgot another category: entertainment. if you are not an outdoor nature person, small towns have little to offer.

[9rx]

> small towns don't have good jobs.

Okay, sure. "Do you want a fun job or do you want a well paying job?" is the age old question. Rarely do you get to have both. If what you are trying to say is: "They are willing to give up friendships and everything else that is usually considered to be important to one's personal life to be able to have fun at work", that is a reasonable answer, but this exchange is a strange way to communicate that if that is your intent.

> also i forgot another category: entertainment. if you are not an outdoor nature person, small towns have little to offer.

1. If you can't even afford to visit with a friend now and again, you most certainly can't afford such entertainment. In your feverous attempt to settle the post-purchase rationalization pangs have you forgotten what the discussion is about?

2. I never understood this anyway. Cities, especially the North American ones that resonate most with the HN crowd, are typically designed for outsiders (i.e. car culture), usually to the detriment of those who live inside the city. As a result, you quite often have better access to those big city entertainment venues by living in a small town than you do living within the very city! Where does this bizarre idea that you can only be entertained within the municipal borders in which you live come from? This is not the first time I've heard it.

[lazide]

Stuck. Trying to move feels like an impossibly difficult situation.

[aianus]

Isn’t it the opposite? Moving from HCOL to LCOL can be somewhat easy as the home equity or savings you built up in HCOL goes a longer way in the destination. Surely easier than moving from LCOL to HCOL?

[lazide]

Not when the real estate market is in the chaos it is right now, most of the ‘easy’ LCOL areas are not only not as LCOL, but have turned politically unpalatable, and there are large efforts now to do things like RTO in HCOL areas.

[mikemcquaid]

I live in Scotland. HCOL here is not very H, despite living in the most expensive city.

Part of the reason I don’t live in America is I see a lot of people on salaries 2-4x mine who seem to be unable to have time to see their friends.

[astura]

>Part of the reason I don’t live in America is I see a lot of people on salaries 2-4x mine who seem to be unable to have time to see their friends.

This is just a choice though. A choice Americans absolutely love making, but a choice none-the-less. On Reddit some dude was trying to argue that an individual needs $70,000 a year in fixed expenses just to live. Bare minimum. OTOH, I have what I consider an absurdly luxurious life and I spend less than $60,000/year TOTAL.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DwlQ_5A2mKU - this is a video of someone who makes $2,200/month and has zero expenses (her parents pay for everything) and is in serious financial trouble.

[bombcar]

Spend some time on bogleheads and you’ll see it all - from people saving $120k a year on $140k salary, to those spending $700k a year and not finding anything to save.

The biggest thing I’ve learned is that if you have a monthly expense, it becomes “necessary fixed expense” damn quickly.

Even if it’s $50 a month for telephone sanitizing.

[astura]

telephone sanitizing?

[bombcar]

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy example of a "useless middle-manager" type occupation.

[mikemcquaid]

Yeh, for sure it’s a choice. I just feel like far more of my US friends make this choice than my Scottish ones.

[rsynnott]

> On Reddit some dude was trying to argue that an individual needs $70,000 a year in fixed expenses just to live. Bare minimum.

... Wait, how the hell did they figure that out? Did they itemise it? Was most of it just going on a very expensive mortgage or something? Are they including retirement savings?

(I've no rent or mortgage, due to having been very lucky with employer equity, but I'm not sure I could spend 60k EUR a year on myself even if I wanted to; there is only so much stuff that you'd reasonably want to spend money on.)

[astura]

Yeah, I can't find the post again but they itemized it according to what they thought was normal basics.

I remember there was large car payments.

OI have been driving for more than 25 years, I've had a car payment for maybe 10 months in those 25 years. To me a car payment is a massive luxury, to this dude it's a minimum basic.

[queenkjuul]

Frighteningly common attitude amongst Americans, including my parents. Never made sense to me. I get that American cities are basically designed to require a car, but that doesn't mean you need to finance or lease something brand new all the time.

[rsynnott]

Huh, I would argue that someone who has 70k after tax per year to spend generally shouldn't be buying a car with debt _at all_; they should be able to afford to save and buy one outright.

[bombcar]

If you push them they always have $3,000/mo on candles, non negotiable or something. It’s silly.

[markeroon]

Great reference https://x.com/dril/status/384408932061417472?lang=en