[kleene_op]

That was exactly my sentiment.

My parents pushed me hard to do piano when I was around 10-12. After a year that went pretty well I was starting to get lazy and put very little work and investment into preparing for the next lesson. They still had me play piano a full year until they eventually gave up and bitterly told me what a waste my resignation felt to them.

20 years later, I got back to playing piano, and I can't thank my parent enough for having me to continue playing in my teenage years. Because it only took me a few month to be able to play pretty advanced piano sheets compared to some of my relatives who are struggling with the basics starting it in their adulthood.

Same for maths. I feel that a lot of people like the author of this blog post are being extremely misdirected thinking math can and should be taught in a fun or amusing manner every time.

Sure, a lot of topics in Maths can be made more digestible by "gameification" to help younglings develop an intuition. But a very big part of Maths actually requires you to sit down and painstakingly crunch down the numbers/equations, memorize and learn when to apply the correct methods to solve some problems. And even though this part can feel fun and engaging after a while, you can't expect children to exhibit such interest right of the bat without having them first struggle with the classics.

Kids don't know better. Your role as a parent is to navigate along the fine line of forcing your kid to get good exposure to the (boring) activities we adults value and letting him enjoy what he enjoys. Only in doing that will your kid open up to the world and grow up into a functional human being.

[hilbert42]

"20 years later, I got back to playing piano, and I can't thank my parent enough for having me to continue playing in my teenage years."

One of the tragedies of being young is that few have the insight to realize that the 'boring' stuff parents and teachers are forcing us to learn will actually benefit us and that eventually we'll be very thankful that they did.

My parents nagged me all the time about studying and even though I did my fair share of it I never fully appreciated how important it was until much later.

It's a strange phenomenon, one cognitively understands the reasons but one is isolated from the reality so one is somewhat distant from it. For example, one can get upset watching war footage on TV but being there is on another level altogether (soldiers often do not talk of their experiences because they know those at home will never fully understand).

In the same way, wisdom gained through experience is almost impossible to impart to a younger generation who has no actual experience.

[ho_schi]

I upvoted all of the above posts because - all of them share some correct arguments.

  * Training is hard.
  * Using your training e.g. a bicycle race is fun.
  * Training is easier, if you actually know why you’re doing it and recognize some progress.

[Magma7404]

> the 'boring' stuff parents and teachers are forcing us to learn will actually benefit us

My parents forced me to play the piano for more than 10 years because they were obsessed with the piano, and because they had a piano. I hated every second of doing that in order to please them, and I never got higher than beginner level because it was a torture for me. Being a beginner for 10 years should be considered as abuse and it messed me up big time, especially for my daily confidence.

30 years later, I still hate that fucking thing and I understand that they fucked up due to their delusion. They deny everything when we talk about it though.

Sometimes you have to listen to the kids and understand what they want do do, and accept it instead of feeding your Munchausen by proxy syndrome. All I wanted was a computer, even the cheapest computer ever would have been acceptable. Nowadays, I write C++ for a living and I still hate the piano. If only anyone listened to me back then... My hatred for that instrument is a mystery for some people, and some people think that "wisdom gained through experience is almost impossible."

[jalapenos]

Amen. And the surreal thing is to then hear the very same mentalities behind this uttered in this comment section.

It's like there's like a vehemence in people towards abuse. Reminds me of how Zweig said that people were in a state of jubilation in anticipation of WW1.

There's something dark in humans where they don't accept the absence of pain. They think to at least some extent, that hurting their kids is a good thing, perhaps under a twisted "toughen them up" mentality.

And the thing is, they get away with it. Maybe their kid gets a chip on their shoulder against them, or maybe even estranged from them. But they don't get hurt back.

In a moral world they absolutely would.

[hilbert42]

"They think to at least some extent, that hurting their kids is a good thing, perhaps under a twisted "toughen them up" mentality."

Hurting a kid and proper discipline are two separate matters. Good discipline and training doesn't hurt kids (in fact many enjoy them). If you find that your actions are hurting a kid then you are doing things wrong.

[hilbert42]

"Sometimes you have to listen to the kids and understand what they want do do, and accept it instead of feeding your Munchausen by proxy syndrome."

I agree, and it's more than 'sometimes', kids have a right to be heard and that hearing should be fair and reasonable. Clearly, in your case it wasn't.

What you experienced was unacceptable by any measure, and in my opinion the fact that your parents were oblivious to your predicament is a damning indictment on their parenting skills.

Your extreme situation isn't what I was referring to, so let me explain by briefly describing what I experienced.

I learned the piano because I wanted to, not because my parents forced me. In fact, whilst my parents were both musical we didn't have a piano when I was young—so I started late and that's been to my disadvantage. I mention that to let you know I understand what you went through.

Whilst I like the piano learning it was no bed of roses and it's difficult for all but the most talented (anyone not wishing to learn it would be an unmitigated drag). For me, those fucking Czerny scales used to drive me to distraction, I'd goof off and play whatever took my fancy whenever I could. Also, my teacher used to reprimand me regularly for not reading score timings as written, I'd play the tempo as I felt felt like it and that always casued a ruckus.

At no time did my parents force me to take subjects that I did not like. That said, gentle persuasion was used. I was never much good at languages and despite my ambivalence for the subject I took French not so much at my mother's insistence but rather her desire that I do so (her sister married a Frenchman and was living in France and she thought it would be useful). Learning French used to drive me crazy, it's not that I detested it (I understood its value), rather the problem was that I wasn't much good at the subject. I'd sit on my bed at home doing my French homework and bash my textbook up and down on the bedclothes whilst tying to learn those fucking French nouns with their damn random genders—why the fuck can't they all be 'la' or 'le' and not random? Having a single 'the' in English is immanently sensible.

Well, despite being not much good at the subject in hindsight learning French turned out to be a blessing when I was living in Europe. I could never have foreseen that situation when I was at school.

Another example, my father used to nag me about not taking Latin, my usual retort being why the hell would I want to learn a dead language (although that was more in jest at his persistence). I sort of had a paltry excuse as my school didn't teach Latin but there were arrangements to do certain subjects by correspondence under teacher supervision in the library. So I never took the subject at school, so nowadays my Latin is at best a mess.

That was a fucking mistake of the first order on my part for reasons too long to describe here. It's only the wisdom of hindsight that I now know I should have taken my father's advice.

BTW, I understand your frustration over not having access to a computer, I'm an IT professional and I managed an IT department for years (I was one of those nerds university security would regularly chuck out of the computer room at 10pm at night). If I'd been in your position, I'd have been mightily pissed off at your parents' miserable attitude.

[tasuki]

> One of the tragedies of being young is that few have the insight to realize that the 'boring' stuff parents and teachers are forcing us to learn will actually benefit us and that eventually we'll be very thankful that they did.

I'm 40. I don't know, perhaps I'm still young.

I did not appreciate having to learn the boring parts. Learning things for the next exam so as to forget them in two weeks... I didn't see the point then and still don't.

I managed to get by with the minimum possible, fluked my CS education, then had a career earning an order of magnitude more than the average salary. Shrug.

Maybe I'm missing something else because of my lack of education? I don't know...

[throwaway31131]

We’re all going to have different paths but I’m certain that flunking CS education and then getting 10x the average salary is not going to be the common case and was probably only possible for a given point in time.

I’m in my late 40s. I left grad school to get a job in VLSI because it was possible to do so in the job market of the 90s. In today’s job market we wouldn’t even pickup the resume of a new college graduate that didn’t have at least a masters. I would’ve been totally passed by today.

Assuming the benefit we’re looking is getting a high paying job of course.

[ThrowawayR2]

You (and I and many others on HN) were lucky enough to join the tech industry while it was still growing explosively and got outsized salaries because of it. If you were to do the same thing today, you'd be telling a very different and much grimmer tale.

[hilbert42]

"…perhaps I'm still young."

Possibly so, wisdom often take years to gel and often only after life events force its notions to the fore.

[tasuki]

I had way more than usual share of "life events". I threw my career out the window to care for my toddler and dying partner. Then my partner died and I'm left alone raising the kid. What else is going to happen to make me wiser?

[kstenerud]

My parents forced me to play piano, right up until I told them that I'll destroy our piano if they don't lay off, and any consequences they could think of would not stop me (I was normally an obedient child, but enough was enough).

That got their attention.

30 years later I picked up classical guitar and loved it! Do I thank my parents for forcing the piano on me? Hell no.

[cpursley]

Like I commented in another post, piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar (and appreciating that genre of music). Very few guitar players can even recognize note names on a staff. You’re not going to get far with classical guitar without it.

[danenania]

Unless you plan to be a professional musician, why does it matter if you “get far”? Isn’t it supposed to be for fun?

[alabastervlog]

That was ironic understatement. With classical guitar, you won’t really get anywhere without being able to read sheet music. It’s not like rock and pop guitar where you can just learn tabs and slightly develop your ear and that’s enough play along with all your favorite tunes.

If you’ve already picked up reading music for one instrument, it’s a ton easier for the next one.

[ctxc]

You need to "get far" enough for it to be fun.

You want to have fun playing along to your favourite song. Or impromptu jam with a friend. Or sing for yourself because a song reminds you of a memory.

They all have a minimum skill requirement, without which it isn't as enjoyable. You need to know to play reasonably well by ear to have fun imo.

[danenania]

Sure, those are definitely fun things to be able to do, but it’s not some kind of essential life skill. If it’s not someone’s thing, why force it? There are plenty of other skills that are also fun to have.

[ctxc]

I mean, fair enough. I had an aptitude for it. If you're able to figure out what skills they might have fun with in the future, that's excellent. If not - I'm not sure, you gotta shoot your shot I guess? Because the dislike might be for the process (practice) when they actually would like the end product (jamming)

I just had a kid so this is pretty real to me. How it will go is anybody's guess, but I hope it does go well :)

[cpursley]

Because eventually you plateau without proper foundations, and that's not fun.

[barry-cotter]

> Because eventually you plateau without proper foundations, and that's not fun.

This is a completely alien perspective to most people. Most people never even really try to be good at anything. That you think this quirk of your own psychology is the norm shows a deep disconnect with the mass of mediocre people who don’t care about being competitive because they’re not trying to get highs up on some leaderboard. https://danluu.com/p95-skill/

[danenania]

Does it matter if you “plateau” at a hobby? I have lots of hobbies and skills I’ve learned then plateaued at. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

[cpursley]

Yes, it’s been very frustrating because there’s things (songs, techniques) that are beyond my reach at the moment due to large gaps.

[kstenerud]

It's not like learning to sight read is a "piano only" skill...

In fact, I never actually learned to sight read until I started on guitar. All I remembered from the old days was "all cows eat grass"

[cpursley]

Learning sight reading is the most natural on piano like instruments. The notes are literally arranged in the same order. Stringed instruments are much more difficult to learn sight reading from scratch on.

[kstenerud]

That's an odd take. Sight reading is about associating the mark on the paper with the actual note, duration, style etc. How that note gets played on a particular instrument is a different matter.

[jalapenos]

Can learn the foundations when you give a shit.

Doesn't actually matter how good he gets at classical guitar either.

[Magma7404]

> piano gave you the foundation for learning classical guitar

Absolutely not. If you hate something and don't learn anything more that entry level, it won't give you any foundation, only hatred and bitterness. Also the piano and the guitar are very different beasts that you cannot compare at all.

[toast0]

The piano and the guitar are different in many ways, but they also have some similarities depending on how you play them.

Mechanically, sure, nothing transfers. Rhythm transfers pretty well. An ear for what sounds right would too.

If you're reading printed music, that transfers. A lot of guitar play comes from tabs though, which isn't really transferrable.

If you play chords on the piano and the guitar, and especially if you're thinking about chord progressions, that transfers. But you might play either instrument without a lot of chords.

Lead melody kinds of things can transfer a bit. Especially if you were thinking about how the notes in the melody fit with the chords, even if you didn't play the chords.

Even if you didn't think you were learning music fundamentals, you might have picked up something.

[hilbert42]

Your experience is the antithesis of mine, I wonder why people are so different.

[wanderingbort]

I’m happy that there was overlap between what your parents put in front of you and what you found passion in later in life.

I think that story happens to many but I cannot accept a premise that it is somehow universal.

The passions I found later in life were unrelated to what my parents put in front of me. I suspect that it’s because the activities I eventually found (distance running, volleyball, cooking) were not activities that my parents enjoyed or thought much about.

Moreover, I was unable to develop healthy models of internal motivation until mid life. I didn’t have to when the “why” was covered by my parents.

Childhood should be the lowest risk time in life for people to learn to fail and find the path back to success. This is what I worry about as a parent when I try to set my kids up for future success. I want them to fail now.

I see my role as a parent as coaching them to care about how they spend their time and how to recover from disappointment and failure. If they get that, then learning piano later in life is just work. They won’t be afraid of that.

[gizmondo]

> I can't thank my parent enough for having me to continue playing in my teenage years.

Counter-example to anyone reading this and thinking about imposing this misery on their child - I absolutely hated piano lessons, and nowadays I absolutely hate that my parents forced me to do it. Total waste of time, even spending more time on Civilization or whatever instead would've been more valuable to me.

[apwell23]

> "Because it only took me a few month to be able to play pretty advanced piano sheets compared to some of my relatives who are struggling with the basics starting it in their adulthood."

I don't get it. you'll be a beginner in something that you weren't pushed to in your childhood. so what?

are you planning to only do things you were pushed to as a child? I learnt skiing in mid 30s , never even saw snow as a child. Its my fav thing to do all winter and spent like 40 days a season on snow. Not sure if i would've enjoyed it the same if i was "pushed" skiing as a child and hated it.