[arthurofbabylon]

> In Italy, ordering an espresso takes five seconds.

Have you had espresso in Italy? By all measures, the worst coffee I have had anywhere in the world, on the level of instant coffee in 2010 (remember that?).

I personally don’t complain when people emphasize the compelling story of their offerings – it typically coincides with a high-quality brew!

[thomassmith65]

This is like someone accustomed to rubbery, processed mozzarella visiting Italy and complaining that Italian mozzarella has so little flavor and texture.

If someone doesn't like Italian mozzarella, then they don't like mozzarella: what they like is some mozzarella-inspired thing.

The same goes for espresso. In Italy, espresso and coffee have been synonymous for over a century.

[arthurofbabylon]

Espresso has moved beyond the Italian methods, despite its origins.

Yes, both a Moka pot and a full pressure larger machine handled by someone practiced can produce excellent coffee, but you cannot seriously expect espresso in an Italian city to compete with what is happening in Tokyo, Bangkok, Taipei, Vancouver, San Francisco, etc.

During coffee’s third wave the profession of barista emerged, and Italy took little part in this elevation of craft. There are people who have literally built a career out of what others (Italians included) dismiss as fuss.

Yes, Italy devised some of the original techniques, but that was about sixty years ago, with — I would argue — limited development since.

Drink fifty espressos each in Rome, Milan, (or the villages!), Tokyo, Bangkok, Vancouver then tell me where you think it is best.

(PS — Nice try, but no one says Italian mozzarella is bad; it is incredibly delicious by all accounts.)

[noirbot]

I think this misses the point of all of this by making any sort of objective statement here. There's nothing inherently wrong with tradition and stability of a style like Italian espresso. Someone who grew up on it may very well hate an espresso made in a different style with a different roast profile and bean origin and that's quite fine.

The issue in my mind is the dogmatic orthodoxy of people who enjoy French or Italian espresso saying that anything else is borderline immoral, or at best "pretentious". I happen to prefer more modern espresso styles, but there's also joy in a good traditional Italian shot.

[thomassmith65]

What set me off is... well, it's easiest to share some memories:

1970s, early 1980s in America: nowhere to get espresso except for fancy restaurants or italian neighborhood

Late 1980s in Pacific NW, America: quirky little Starbucks chain pops up. Ambience emulates a SF hippie coffee house, but they serve Italian-style cookies and espresso.

1990s, 2000s: Starbuck becomes gigantic corporation. Coffee culture fad spreads. Average American now knows what 'biscotti' are.

Today: "Italians make bad espresso"

And in a plausible future...

2050s: espresso fad long dead in America. Italians carry on same as ever, since coffee there, for generations, has meant 'espresso'

[noirbot]

Sure, I get it! Maybe it is all just a fad that will pass. I don't hold judgement for people who enjoy a more classic espresso, but as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I was in Europe most of 15 years ago and you'd essentially get "oh, you're one of those people" looks if you wanted anything but a dark roast espresso. The OP of this thread would likely be as annoyed by trying to get "a cup of coffee" in Italy as in any pretentious city in the world, assuming he doesn't happen to like dark roast espresso.

Both sides can be pretentious. Dogmatic attachment to tradition can be pretentious just like overzealous modernism. I certainly wouldn't order an espresso in Milan and then be upset that I dislike it, but I would find it annoying that it's difficult to find a cup of coffee I do enjoy, just like my British friends find it difficult to find a cup of tea that meets their preference, which I also think is a sub-par way to prepare a drink.

Plus, the espresso fad is kinda already long-dead in America. Sure, there's Starbucks, but no one's really getting a black coffee or espresso shot there. If anything, America's contribution to coffee that has persisted for decades is drip coffee and more recently handbrew pourovers (though Japan and others also contributed a lot there). There's a reason the Americano is essentially just espresso made to taste like drip coffee.

[thomassmith65]

For myself, I'm perfectly content with a bottomless mug of filter coffee from a diner.

Actually: diners! What a good example...

I would find it equally disrespectful if a Spaniard or an Egyptian posted something like "Americans have the worst diner food in the world."

Nobody needs to like the coffee or the pie in an American diner. But if they don't... whatever they like isn't really diner food.

[thomassmith65]

There's some failure to comprehend the ubiquity of espresso in Italy here.

When I was a kid, espresso was practically unavailable outside Southern Europe. In Italy, every household had, as they still do, a stovetop espresso maker. In Italy, every city corner had, as it still does, a bar serving espresso.

Whatever Italians consider good espresso, we - who grew up on filter coffee, which Italians do not drink - probably ought to defer.

Is there a better espresso somewhere? Perhaps.

Is it conceivable that Italian espresso is terrible? Nope.

The proposition is as absurd as claiming that Japanese sushi is subpar, or that Swedish dammsugare are the world's worst.

[pjmlp]

Definitly, as Portuguese I think we do share some expresso mentality with Italy, even some regional words for coffee are derived from Italian machine brands, and the same complaint regarding expresso when abroad, with exception when visiting Italy :).

I can assure that at least since the 1970's there was hardly any household without a stovetop espresso maker.

[thomassmith65]

That makes me realize I didn't take Brazil or Argentina into account. I never visited Latin America in the 1970s, but with their roots, presumably they had espresso there, too.

[Centigonal]

I went to Rome in 2019 and all the coffee I had was pretty decent! It was all espresso, and a lot of Lavazza (not third wave local roaster stuff), but it was all pretty good.

[shaky-carrousel]

I’m guessing you didn’t travel all across Italy tasting espresso to back up such a broad statement. I’d be surprised if you ventured much beyond a few tourist traps in Rome.

[thenthenthen]

I love LOVE the coffee culture in Italy, 1€ espresso’s at a standing bar?! Count me in!

[lxgr]

That's in fact exactly what I love about espresso in Italy and some other European countries: It's ubiquitous, fast, cheap (even cheaper if you drink it standing up!), and as a result a commodity and not something pretentious.

I also don't remember ever having had a bad cup of espresso in Italy. If it ever happens, I'll just walk a few steps down the street and chase it down with a decent or good one.

[noirbot]

But that is, in itself, a normalcy bias. I don't generally like Italian roast coffee. It's too oily and generally upsets my stomach. It's not a flavor or style I like in espresso. I'm not going to claim no one should like it - clearly people do, but if you don't like that, Italy is a really bad place to live because it's so orthodox about its espresso and doesn't support "pretentious" places that may serve something that doesn't taste "normal".

Just because a specific style has been around for years doesn't mean it's the only valid style that's not "pretentious".

[reverius42]

The best thing about espresso in Italy, besides it being universally drinkable (assuming you like espresso at all), is that last time I was there it was still only 1 euro. Drop a coin on the bar and get an espresso shot, any time.

I assume it's more like 2 euros now.