[nekochanwork]

SCOTUS ruled in Mathews v. United States (1998) and in Jacobson v. United States (1992) that the government cannot induce a person to commit a crime, then arrest that individual for that crime.

Now the government is rolling out fully-automated entrapment bots.

[netsharc]

The FBI has been doing a lot of prodding people to say they hate the country, and then telling them to do a bombing, and then providing them with a (fake) bomb, and then telling the public "We caught another terrorist!": https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/07/21/illusion-justice/human...

Also reminds me of the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/02/gretchen-whitmer...

[pixelready]

I like to call this the “dissident loophole”. What they really want to do is round up dissidents to protect the status quo, but punishing thought crime directly is just the right combination of unconstitutional and a bad look (though McCarthyism showed us we’re not always above that). So instead they will use social engineering to drag people over the line into minor acts of terrorism so they can be arrested, thus snuffing out future seeds of dissent.

You see this a lot in policing as well. Where people that seem “demographically criminal” to law enforcement are funneled into drug violations as an excuse to round up people they want to round up anyway.

[Miner49er]

Another example: https://theintercept.com/2015/11/19/an-fbi-informant-seduced...

[apawloski]

If the new person in your friend group suddenly wants everyone to commit an act of terror, chances are they are an FBI agent.

[rolph]

how about if someone xeno just has to get latched into your life, no matter how much of an arsewhole you act like.

in my experience people dont want to socially invest in unknown people, unless a friend, family, social group vouches or introduces you.

when you get a clingon, its almost always no good.

[pixl97]

Well, that or they are dumb and the FBI is watching them already.

[potato3732842]

>Well, that or the feds got them on something else and promised leniency if they become an "informant" and goading you into some bigger bust is part of the deal

Fixed to reflect typical federal government procedure.

[sfn42]

I have to say that if someone is far enough gone that they can trivially be convinced to bomb innocent people then I'm fine with this type of entrapment. Great work, go ahead and lock them up for life.

[nativeit]

They are banking on precisely this kind of “common sense” rationalizing of removing civil rights.

[sfn42]

The civil right to be willing but currently unable to commit terrorism?

[fc417fc802]

The civil right not to be led by the nose by a government agent to commit a crime. They are relying on people doing exactly what you're doing here - convincing themselves that if it was possible to lead them into it then they deserved it so the ends justify the means.

[sfn42]

Yeah I get your point, and I generally agree for minor offenses like buying drugs or prostitution or whatever. But if someone can trivially be convinced to murder a bunch of people then the world is better off with them locked away.

[AzzyHN]

The constitution prohibits search without a warrant, and cruel and unusual punishment, but here we are.

What's "legal" doesn't really matter.

[pixelready]

Yes, this is why I get frustrated when people eyeroll about the severity of norm violations in our authority figures. Much of the law-in-practice is not the ink on the page, but the cultural norms around enforcement. By the time you get your vindication in court (assuming the court is acting in good faith), your life has already been turned upside down. The corrupt enforcer gets a slap on the wrist, and goes on to continue violating the law as written, knowing full well that they can basically just practice the law that exists in their head and let the court sort out anyone with the resources to fight for their rights.

[Frieren]

> What's "legal" doesn't really matter.

It does, as much as always. A different thing is that elected politicians think that does not matter and stop enforcing the law.

But it will have consequences. Because just laws that apply to everybody create a very different society with very different capabilities than one that is just a feudal system.

The middle ages were not shitty because we forgot how to innovate but they were bad because feudal system kill innovation and creativity at the same time that increase suffering.

[hx8]

In the US there are boundaries in which law enforcement can perform a sting operation. It happens all the time.

[beloch]

The U.S. is currently disappearing people to foreign prisons, openly and in flagrant defiance of the courts. Trump has signalled he intends to expand this practice to include U.S. citizens (Just the worst convicted criminals currently in prison, of course.). If this administration can get away with all that, disappearing students who were entrapped by police will probably follow. Foreign students first, then Americans.

[TYPE_FASTER]

US born citizens are now being held for immigration reasons: https://floridaphoenix.com/2025/04/17/u-s-born-man-held-for-...

https://x.com/LlanosJackie/status/1912908068167221653

[_mlbt]

The lack of due process is a big problem, but what if the court in question issues an order that is impossible to legally comply with?

The United States has no jurisdiction over citizens of El Salvador in El Salvador. What is Trump supposed to do in this case, call up Pete Hegseth and order a commando style raid on the prison he’s being held in?

[spondylosaurus]

If it's impossible to legally comply with orders to bring US residents back from El Salvadoran prisons (which I'm skeptical of, but let's grant that it is truly impossible), then that's probably a sign we should stop sending people there, since it'd be impossible to comply with future orders as well.

[_mlbt]

The person in question is not a legal US resident.

[m-watson]

He wasn't a citizen, he was granted a work permit and it was directed that he should not be deported to El Salvador back in 2019. That arguably makes him a US resident, legally able to reside and work here.

One source - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-documents-governmen...

[spondylosaurus]

Indeed.

Also I originally said "resident" and not "legal resident" because I think it's blatantly insane that anyone in the US, with legal recourse to be here or otherwise, is being captured and sent to a prison in a country they may or may not have ever been to, and in a country over which the US claims to have no authority to bring them back when ordered to do so. Kicking someone out of the US is one thing, but sending them to a shitbox supermax prison abroad is another entirely.

That said, it's also true that many of these people are LEGAL residents, which makes matters that much worse.

[_mlbt]

Yes deporting him to El Salvador without due process was a mistake. We’re in agreement there.

[sanktanglia]

You are ignoring the part where we are paying el Salvador to keep them there. If it's a contract we enacted and pet for then yes we have leverage unlike what the government suggests

[_mlbt]

You’re ignoring the part where he’s not actually a “Maryland man” but instead a citizen of El Salvador that was in this country illegally. Now that he’s back in El Salvador the United States government has no jurisdiction over him. It’s entirely up to El Salvador. Just because a judge issued this order doesn’t make it a lawful order.

[acdha]

That’s like saying it’s entirely up to the restaurant to give you your food, so you have no control over what the kitchen does. The United States is paying them money for a service and has many other levers of considerable power, so it would be easy for an administration acting in good-faith to show that they made a request at a certain time and will cancel payment or escalate if it’s not honored.

[_mlbt]

I’m sorry but you can’t convince me that people in this country illegally shouldn’t be deported back to their country of origin. Particularly when they are affiliated with violent gangs like MS-13 and commit acts of domestic violence that cause their wife to get a restraining order against them.

I can empathize with why people would want to immigrate to this country, but they need to do so legally.

[patch_collector]

I imagine asking would likely do the trick. As an escalation, considering we're paying them to hold these people, we could threaten to stop paying them. They're not locking up our detainees out of the goodness of their heart.

[samman]

For El Salvadorian citizens I think you make a good point. But for non-citizens (e.g. Venezuelans)that the US has sent to El Salvadoranean prisons presumably via diplomatic means, it seems reasonable that they could be returned via diplomatic means. [edit] Courts should be able to order a good faith effort to implement those means, but they certainly don’t have any way to guarantee a result.

[ProjectArcturis]

This is the most ridiculous argument. Trump wants to make Canada the 51st state. He wants to take Greenland by force if necessary. He's going to start trade wars until foreign leaders come and beg him for relief. BUT he's going to cower before the sovereign might of El Salvador.

[sdsd]

With protests, the goal isn't even to arrest + charge people - often, just an excuse to shutdown the protest or revoke a permit would suffice

[gruez]

>Now the government is rolling out fully-automated entrapment bots.

Are we reading the same article? Hand wringing about slippery slopes aside, I skimmed the article and the actual messages that the AI sent are pretty benign. For instance, the "jason" persona seems to be only asking/answering biographical questions. The messages sent by the pimp persona encourages the sex worker to collect what her clients owe her. None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever.

[pixl97]

>None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever.

Can the system do it is the question.

If yes, then the system will eventually be used that way by people seeking promotions by getting a big bust.

[UncleEntity]

> None of the messages show the AI radicalizing a college student activist into burning down a storefront or whatever.

Yeah, I'm sure they're going to put that in their promotional materials...