[tikotus]

I'm not sure how tongue in cheek this was, but I assume it's serious. Either way, it's a fun and smart read.

The article spots well the dark side of the moomins, but in my opinion goes too deep into it. My disagreements boil down to this: "One of the oddest aspects of the Moomin phenomenon is how these complex tales of apocalypse, breakdown and disfunction have been consistently misread as cutesy celebrations of domestic life." Yes, all these things exist, but the point to me has always been that they are cutesy despite that! The stories paint a very typical family dynamic (at least of the time, at least in a Finnish swedish speaking family like Tove's), throws it into weirdest situations, and they all survive together thanks to, and despite, their dysfunctions. And Moominmamma is the most wholesome character ever, period.

[TeMPOraL]

I've been listening to Moomin audiobooks and reading some of the books to my wife in recent years, and I started to spot some of the more adult/darker subtext in it (I'm still processing the one where the Moominpappa makes the entire family move to a lighthouse, and Moominmamma is desperately trying to cope with growing depression). Still, I have an answer for the author's conundrum, that's accurate for a significant fraction of the readerbase:

> "One of the oddest aspects of the Moomin phenomenon is how these complex tales of apocalypse, breakdown and disfunction have been consistently misread as cutesy celebrations of domestic life."

It's actually really simple. Here in Poland, myself and my entire generation grew up watching the children cartoon adaptation of the Moomins. It was cute, it was happy, it had nice art and music, it was suitable for small children but engaging even to older ones, and it was aired when all kids would be watching[0]. This was our generation's intro to the Moomins, and it colored how we read the books.

I imagine the case is similar all across Europe. A whole generation primed to read these stories as positive and light-hearted, because of a TV adaptation.

--

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieczorynka - public TV (TVP1), every day at 19:00, just before the evening news slot. In times I grew up, watching this was pretty much a national tradition for any family with children.

[i_hate_moomins]

Light hearted? Suitable for small children? Are you kidding me.

I'm in my mid-30's and still remember nightmares those stupid series gave me when I was in kindergarten. It was X-Files-tier scary ("The X Files" being other show aired by polish TV around same time), masquarading behind cute animations. How can anyone in their right mind call the episode where the Moomintroll swaps bodies with Stinky lighthearted and positive? What about the collection of monsters like Groke or Hattifnats? On some occasion I remember my parents would call me to get out from my room to watch the "wieczorynka" and I would pretend I can't hear and come out only as I hear the outro song starting, just to avoid whatever insane plot the Moomins would bring on me that time. I hate Moomins so much and wish could erase it from existence. Calling it "cute and happy" is like saying candybar with razorblade inside is delicious; technically true but not exactly an accurate description.

[hjgjhyuhy]

What you describe is the very reason I let my children watch moomins. Not everything needs to be bland and boring like today’s children’s shows. World is not like that.

Over here im Finland me and every other 90’s kids watched these shows, and mostly turned our fine. There’s so much nostalgia around it all.

[jnurmine]

I've not seen other Moomin TV-series than the one made in Japan, so I can't comment on the others. The Japanese-made TV-series was probably watched by almost all children of a certain age group in Finland. Of course not all children liked the series or some episodes etc. but I'd say the vast majority did.

And yes, empirically, there were several "scary" things which freaked out the smaller children but were just amusing for an older child. The scary parts usually had a logical explanation or a backstory which made sense (or reflection with an adult made it make sense).

For example (I hope I remember all the details right):

The angry Ant Lion preying in a sandpit: eventually the Moomins manage to shrink it to peanut-size with the Wizard's hat, and it's not so scary anymore. It's still an Ant Lion, but very small, and the voice is high-pitched. Why isn't it scary anymore?

The Groke is scary as it stares while making gnarling sounds and all other characters are afraid of it, but The Groke doesn't want to harm anyone. In some episode a character explains that The Groke is actually very lonely. So it follows people as it wants to hang around them, but expresses itself in a scary way and since The Groke unvillingly freezes things where it goes, others avoid it.

The Wizard was dressed in dark clothes, looked scary and rode on a flying panther. But while The Wizard had a stern face and voice, he did not want harm to anyone and helped Moomins too.

Stinky may have a scary appearance, but also he is is not evil as such, just smells bad and does mischief like steals stuff. Which is why the characters are not so fond of him.

The Hattifatteners are like mushrooms, they grow from seeds, and move about, trying to reach the horizon in groups. They are drawn to thunder and electricity and they can zap someone with electricity if one touches the charged-up Hattifatteners. I always interpreted them like a force of nature, they're not looking to harm anyone, and are no more evil than wind that falls a tree is evil.

[npodbielski]

You created another account just to write how you hate moomins? Dude chill out.

Anyway, the fact that you did that and still remembering it after all those years proves how extra ordinary this work was.

[i_hate_moomins]

Yes, I did, and I see nothing wrong with venting about this particular piece of culture.

I respectfully disagree with the line of reasoning where "traumatizing" is equalled with "extraordinary".

[ktallett]

What is traumatizing to one child can be thought provoking to another. Not every one experiences any form of entertainment in the same way.

[npodbielski]

I do wrote that implying that you did anything wrong.

I just wanted to point out that the lengths you are willing to go through just to write 'I hate moomins' proves that it is extraordinary.

And remember that not everything is for everybody. If you do not like it, fine!

Just think about how traumatizing it was without depicting a violence or sex, achieving that with cute animation... Yes it is an extraordinary feat.

[klntsky]

It's funny that you made a throwaway just to post an opinion on a book for children on this site

[Tempat]

They’re speaking specifically about the TV series.

[trhway]

i wonder what you'd think about Brothers Grimm's tales :) And in general children folk tales in many countries do contain strong violence, cruelty, torture, etc. if you'd focus on those details.

[i_hate_moomins]

I read them when I was older, no strong opinion either way. I'm glad all screen adaptions I saw as child weren't literal. I vaguely remember my parents reading me a few of them and I think they adjusted level of terror to what I could stomach at the time.

[adrianN]

A lot of those stories try to teach children that going alone into the woods is a very bad idea. You have to read them in the historic context; don’t think they’re particularly suitable for modern children.

[trhway]

well, we may adapt them to what happens to the Red Hood when she crosses the road incorrectly and at the wrong place - not much different than meeting a hungry wolf. We may even add a video or two to spike the imagination and burn the lesson into the memory.

[Timon3]

Seems like "Hans-guck-in-die-Luft" (seems to be "Johnny-Head-in-the-Air"?) is predestined for this.

[bazoom42]

Some of the Grimms tales are incredibly gruesome, but it may be a misunderstanding to consider them childrens folk tales. Grimm collected stories told among adults.

In the 19th century it became a trend to publish fairy tales aimed towards children. But these were often sanitized versions of the stories told by adults.

[Aeolun]

It’s amazing what you get if you read the originals.

[mrmlz]

I agree there is a scene with the Groke when everything freezes and the moomins are inside their home.. That was freakishly scary.

Other than than the Moomins are pretty great. I got the branded coffee cups now (even with the Groke!)

[thih9]

> It was cute, it was happy

Many episodes had darker undertones as well, especially those with the Groke[1] or hattifatteners. Tvtropes has a list[2].

> The Groke was so horrifying in fact, that in Poland it caused a nation-wide fear in almost all children, some of which were even left traumatised for years, leading to some parents forbidding their children from watching Moomins, and some using the Groke as a Bogeyman to scare their children into good behavior. Any 90s or 2000s Polish kid will know how it felt.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Groke

[2]: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NightmareFuel/TheMoom...

[krige]

This is extremely exaggerated. The Groke is more of a meme here than some sort of night terror. Sure it had an impact and was memorable but there was no wave of traumatized kids spawned by it.

[thih9]

Maybe you watched a different cartoon, were not in that age group - or forgot?

There are many more accounts of that:

> The Groke has been widely considered one of the creepiest characters in fiction by many people and even by a study. In late 90's and early 2000's, when the 90's anime series - which is considered by many to have the scariest portrayal of the Groke in it - premiered in Poland, the Groke - known in Poland as Buka - caused a panic amongst Polish children. The Groke had different sounds - deep, eerie cold howls and moans preformed by voice actor Andrzej Bogusz. This, mixed with the darker colouring of the episodes (a trait shared with Finnish episodes and some other airings) and the fact that the Moomins were mostly played at night, in the Wieczorynka programming block caused the Groke to be widely considered one of the scariest childhood characters in Poland, both by 90's and early 2000's kids.

> Many children were horrified by her, were scared to go to sleep because of her, having dreams of her chasing them or turning into the Groke (some examples of such dreams could be found on the myslalemże.pl portal before it got shut down around early 2010's). The defunct portal Grono.net even had an Anti-Groke forum called ANTY-BUKA, where people would share their childhood stories about the Groke.

https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/The_Groke

And even first person:

> [google translate] How is it possible that a dark, buzzing figure can scare small children? Hey, I can't. As a child I was very afraid of it. Now I don't know why. When I talk to my peers (15 years old) they say they were afraid too. Why?

https://www.filmweb.pl/serial/Muminki-1990-119826/discussion...

[krige]

The filmweb discussion comment pointedly notes the author is not afraid of it now, and doesn't get why it was scary then. Several other comments also point out she looked lonely and less scary than the hattifnattar. Hardly the all-traumatizing experience.

[thih9]

Hardly "cute and happy" either.

[mrmlz]

................

Well I certainly had nightmares about that...

[philips]

I love the books, I have read them all to my kids, and I agree that I think the article takes its thesis too far.

The books are strange tales. They have dark undertones. And sometimes the adults take actions that only someone with life experience would really understand (e.g. Moominpappa wanting to suddenly upend everything in the families life and move to an isolated island). But, my kids mostly pick up on the adventure and the friendships.

I feel that the Moomins are like most media that is enjoyable by both children and parents in this way (e.g. Bluey, Pixar films, etc.).

[eqqn]

Another way to view it is a series that accompanies a child to young adult years. (It took me a few years to get through the series inbetween other books. I assume many bedtime reads for the first few, and independent reading for later ones). What starts as fantastical and whimsical, indeed becomes more somber and concerning interpersonal dynamics, especially those within Moomin family and those around them. "Moominpapa at Sea" is probably most relatable to adult readers. The underlying message of family unity, finding ways to cope with certain events, parenting styles, need to break routines (picnics), unrequited crushes.

Moominland Midwinter is interesting character study too, with sporty "artistic" coded Hemulen proving too much for most of the cast to handle, the forgetful grandpa. Perhaps the message was it is okay to not be friends with everyone as it is a bother.

Compare it to "Finn Family Moomintroll" which is just a constantly stacking ridiculous lighthearted escapade with a few more mature jokes mixed in.

[kleinishere]

Based on your experience, what age do you think is ideal for introducing the books to kids?

[philips]

I started reading the novel stories when the kids were 3yo and 6yo. Both love them. My 3yo for the drawings mostly.

There are a number of excellent picture book adaptations of stories that have been published too. But, we read those afterwards and obviously they aren’t as enjoyable to me.

Because this is HN: My tradition is to use my Inkpalm 5 and read them with the lights out at bedtime- we pass the reader around to look at pictures.

[sireat]

Not the previous poster, but based on my own experience as a kid and also my kids I'd say age 5 is perfectly good age to introduce the books.

As an adult you pick up on some the more serious themes but as a kid you just enjoy the story and the bit of danger and overcoming and the overall wholesomeness.

[nonrandomstring]

Mine started 5/6, but the more recent books are made for kids. The earlier newspaper cartoons are not. Same with TV, the later Japanese/Dutch produced TV series is lovely. The earlier TV series (there are several) are dark as the cupboard under the stairs and the Groke goes postal killing everything in one.

[0] https://www.moomin.com/en/blog/moomin-tv-animations/

[bazoom42]

While all the books have both humour and darkness, the early books are more whimsical and playful while the later books are more about loneliness, alienation, and loss.

[fsloth]

Spot on. I think the author did not think through their argument: ""One of the oddest aspects of the Moomin phenomenon is how these complex tales of apocalypse, breakdown and disfunction have been consistently misread as cutesy celebrations of domestic life.""

But that's exactly what makes domestic life worth celebrating - at best it sustains you through disaster and hardship. What better way to celebrate it than to show it's strength?

[bazoom42]

Is it really a celebration of family life when Moominpappa uproots the whole family because of his midlife crisis and sends Moominmamma into depression?

[fsloth]

I would say yes. In my standards that still accounts for interesting-life-choices-but-safe-and-sane. But I grew up in an alcoholic family so realize my standards are likely slightly low-bar for what accounts for 'admirable'.

[pavlov]

They come through it wiser and more in touch with themselves.

A family is a place where you should be able to also be something else than the ideal version of yourself that you’d like to show the rest of the world, something less perfect and more work-in-progress. Moomins lean heavily on showing how that actually makes their family stronger.

[bazoom42]

> They come through it wiser and more in touch with themselves.

Are you sure? Or is this just projecting the ideals we think childrens books are supposed to have? How is Moominmamma changed after the ordeal on the lonely island? - we don’t know, because the next book is about missing her and about how her absence affects the characters left behind.

The darker threads in the Moomin books are not hidden. It is all in plain view.

Like the squirrel which is too absent minded to seek shelter when the hard frost hits. Guess what - it freezes to death. They give it a nice burial though.

[bazoom42]

The cutesy family parts kind of evaporates towards the later books though. The last book is about longing for a moominmamma which is no longer there.

To be fair, Jansson never claimed she wrote for kids in the first place.

[xg15]

I wonder if the title was tongue in cheek. Dark Side of the Moo(mi)n?