[palata]

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary".

I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me get a raise of a few bucks per month, that will pay for it".

It didn't go as planned: I followed the instructions in the book, my boss spent an hour bullshitting me and I didn't get a raise. So I sent my resignation the next day. The boss called me back, and I got a substantial raise and a bonus (to compensate for the shitty salary I had been having before, it was not a miracle).

All that to say that this book did not make me a pro negotiator. But it made me understand how salary negotiation works (reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life). And it gave me the confidence to actually ask for a raise.

Totally worth it.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step...

[shalmanese]

> reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life

Negotiation is a grammar. The rules of the grammar, when laid out on the page, sound incredibly basic. But like any grammar, anyone used to "hearing" the grammar, it becomes immediately apparently who has command of the grammar and who is making grammatical mistakes.

But the point of the grammar is not to learn the grammar, the point of the grammar is to make beautiful sentences. How far you choose to go down the path is up to your own avocation but learning the grammar allows you to understand and communicate the beautiful sentences of negotiation.

[ghaff]

One lesson is that you have to be willing to walk away. Doesn't mean you can't negotiate at all otherwise. But you're in the strongest position when you legitimately can go "take it or leave it" if it comes to that.

And you also don't want to throw away a great opportunity because you didn't wring every last dollar out of it.

[palata]

> One lesson is that you have to be willing to walk away.

That's probably because I did not explain it well enough. I can tell you the lesson, because it is impact it had on me :-).

I was already willing to walk away and was about to. I found the book by chance, in something like a random HN discussion. Without the book I would have resigned without asking for a raise, I know it.

Then I got a few lessons about the way I should prepare for asking for the raise, and the big mistakes I should not make ("don't say this", which seems obvious when you read it, but which I would have done wrong).

Finally it helped me talk about salaries when I was interviewing for other jobs. Again, difficult to say if I would have ended up with a lower salary without the book, but it most definitely gave me the confidence to talk about compensation, and I think it's worth more than the $40 of the book.

[crmi]

You may enjoy 'Never Split the Difference' by an FBI negotiator. Interesting read for high stakes (kidnappers etc) stuff

[the_gipsy]

Just understanding how negotiations work removes the frustration.

I read a book about negotiating. It had the usual breakdown of strategies, tactics and scenarios, and a lot of filler, but it was entertaining to read. Today I'm still not a good negotiator. Normally I just don't want to waste my time and just want to get something, or I don't want to "squeeze" the other side for little profit.

But I know that on big key deals, like buying a house, a car, or getting a job, there it is well worth to apply some pressure. And if I don't get to my goal, or if a deal fails, now I understand why and don't feel so much frustration as before.

[palata]

> or I don't want to "squeeze" the other side for little profit.

That's exactly how I feel! That's why I believe it is important to understand the process. When you negotiate with a company, you're not squeezing the other side for profit. They just won't accept anything unreasonable. But in case they want to squeeze you (which is likely), then you should defend yourself.

[mystifyingpoi]

I've found that it's a good idea to practice such skills when buying things in $100 and above range, especially if you are directly talking to the seller. It almost never hurts to ask "hey, I see the price is X, I like your product, would you be able to squeeze in some discount?" with a smile on your face. Even if for a 2% discount.

[stonecharioteer]

While that has worked for me too, I find that negotiating by resignation isn't going to address other issues such as those that bolster the unfair salary. Yes. You got what you wanted, but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you.

[mystifyingpoi]

> Or they want to extract the maximum work from you

I think that if this strategy works and salary is increased, then the job is burned anyway and I'd be looking for a new one no matter what they say, while pocketing the extra cash for a few months. If management starts to ask for documenting processes or training someone, that's a dead giveway and, ethics aside, the best course of action is (unfortunately) to do bare minimum and focus on job search.

[palata]

Just to be clear: my point is not that the book taught me to negotiate by resignation :-). The book gave me confidence to negotiate, and I did not even mention resigning as part of the negotiation. Only after the negotiation (a few days later), I chose to resign because of the result of the negotiation (which was therefore a failure).

What the book brought to me confidence: I would have resigned without asking for a raise, saying "well it's time for me to move on" and not "I'm leaving because of the salary". Hence my boss would not have made an offer.

The book also helped me understand how salary negotiation works, and how it is "normal": the recruiter does it all the time, they are used to it, and you may actually look more professional if you know how to talk about compensation than if you just accept whatever they say like a junior.

> but now they know you played a wildcard and they want you gone on their terms. Or they want to extract the maximum work from you.

Not at all, in my case :-).

[mystifyingpoi]

Haha, I love it. It's incredible how tables turn once you submit your resignation. I was being outsourced and my boss declined even the smallest raise, saying that his client would have to raise the payment as well, and I cannot skip him as the middleman. So I resigned and found another job. The next day client reached out to me and asked if I want to skip the middleman, because suddenly it's fine and there are no contractual problems. That would probably mean like a 40% raise at the time. I was tempted, but it was too late.

[ghaff]

As I suggested elsewhere, that's fine but you have to be OK with them saying "Sorry to see you go. Don't let the door hit you on your way out."

[JoshDoody]

Josh here (I wrote Fearless Salary Negotiation), and I just wanted to say that it's fantastic to hear that you got such a great outcome. Great work!

And thanks for sharing this publicly, if for no other reason than it made may day.

Cheers!

[mavelikara]

Josh Doody, the author, runs a consulting service that helps candidates negotiate. Multiple people in my network have used his services to great advantage.

[JoshDoody]

This is really cool to hear—thanks for sharing! Cheers!

[jalapenos]

I'd say in almost all companies, no other approach works except this. Every other approach is basically wasting each other's time and energy.

In fact for most people, don't even bother, just find a new job.

If you super like the work at your current company, the way I'd roll is:

- work hard in a way that also builds new skills, and get recognized for your performance, widely (and add everyone to LinkedIn, you never know who might be moving on next to somewhere that needs more hires)

- At 2 years absolute limit: "I think I'm senior now" or whatever is next level, or "my salary isn't aligned with market" - at least give them opportunity

- They blah blah. Don't protest, politely nod and let the meeting end.

- You then, depending on your bank balance and risk appetite, either say the next day "ok I need to move on to pursue other opportunities" and resign, or start reaching out to your network for a new job the very same day they do their blah blah

(Goes without saying that saving up a big bank balance is the most important negotiating tool, but catch-22 and all that)

NB: I might add one other technique that can get overlooked: timing. The best time to ultimatum is when the counterparty is least capable of dealing with it. So if you wait until the person who has to decide if you'll get what you want is having an absolutely shit month, e.g. several other people have left recently, or they are bogged down in some other pain, they're far more likely to give in. And due to the ebbs and flows of business, those ebbs will always show up from time to time.