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by zfg 442 days ago
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3 comments

This is not a 1st amendment issue.

This is a late stage capitalism issue where too much power has been consolidated into the hands of too few, and so much as a single comment made publicly can blacklist you from participating in any cultural event for the rest of your life.

Think of how many radio stations, venues, internet channels etc have been bought up by megacorp.

We have all the bad parts of a Gibson cyberpunk dystopia and none of the flying cars or bio-enhancements.

While that may be technically correct I don't think it's actually correct. Just because it doesn't violate the 1st amendment doesn't mean it doesn't violate free speech.

Democracy isn't just a form of government, it is also a type of society. Part of being a democratic society is that people are generally able to respectfully express themselves without fear of being punished for unpopular opinions.

> Part of being a democratic society is that people are generally able to respectfully express themselves without fear of being punished for unpopular opinions.

Well, yes, but I'd say the more important part is that students are having their visas revoked and being pulled off the street into immigration detention because of social media posts.

it's a 1st ammendment issue

in the sense in which the entire constitutional apparatus is falling appart

because citizen-president Trump is a power bully

but this was bound to happen. as we transition from orality to literacy to digital-literacy and beyond

consider why the laws are written down. consider the way language became computer languages. and then realize that what was written down must now grapple with the new technological paradigm of digital paper that writes on itself

it's like we have (re-)discovered paper and the very idea of writing down the law is a techno-social innovation sweeping the land

A private company restricting speech is a freedom of speech issue in the general sense, but most certainly not a First Amendment issue.

Of course that doesn’t mean that it’s a good thing to happen, or that there should not be any laws preventing it.

First amendment is protection from the government, not by the government. It wasn't the government that blocked the speech so it wasn't a first amendment issue
It is protection by the state. It is how the state is constituted. It's what the state means and offers. It's what the state is for and what, in principle, the state does.

If the state doesn't in fact do these things then you have a different state and the constitution is just a piece of paper.

> It is protection by the state.

It absolutely is not. In fact it is a restriction on the state.

The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are inherent. They are not derived from the government. We have them by nature of existing. The Bill of Rights prohibits the government from infringing on these inherent rights.

And who in your mind maintains and upholds those rights? It's state institutions.

The judiciary is a branch of government.

You can assert rights but if you don't have those rights in practice then the assertions don't help you.

> as we transition from orality to literacy to digital-literacy and beyond

Really we're going backwards here

Digital literacy in the younger generations is dropping, and even language literacy is not where it used to be

It's kind of shocking to see these stats regress in my lifetime but they are

What metrics are available on these things? Is it based on a survey?
> This is not a 1st amendment issue.

It absolutely is. Freedom of speech means free speakers. If you're going to face petty punishments for the rest of your days because your criticized the "wrong" people then you are not a free speaker.

If you're serious about a free society that means you have to cop criticism, disrespect, and even mockery, most especially and particularly if you're in a position of power.

> If you're serious about a free society that means you have to cop criticism, disrespect, and even mockery

Government does, but other entities don’t.

I am not saying I agree or like it, just that 1st amendment doesn’t specifically apply here.

The general idea of freedom of speech applies and there may be state, local laws or other federal laws in play. But that’s more “in spirit” and wouldn’t hold up in court.

It’s like people being censored on Facebook or YouTube - “Don’t like it? Build your own Facebook or YouTube, pal”. Here it’s “build your own MSG, pal” I guess.

You're right but there is something to be said about the responsibility of the system/government/society to prevent private overlords who can effectively stifle/chill speech because of their monopolistic power.

Democracy doesn't just mean you get to vote on some things.

The 1A protects citizens from the government. Presently the government is being systematically dismantled from the inside.

Madison Square Garden and its investors have the freedom to bar anyone they see fit on their own property. Their portfolios are only getting larger.

That’s late stage capitalism.

It can be both.

The intent of 1A is to protect the freedom of speech from those in power. The fact that non-government entities now wield the power to suppress speech doesn't change the fact that this is an infringement of free speech.

That’s not the interpretation of pretty much any court in the history of the United States.

In fact, the opposite is true: The government forcing private individuals or companies to tolerate speech on their premises or carry it in their media is considered compelled speech and as such a First Amendment violation itself.

Whether that’s still the best way of doing things is a different question, but that’s what the First Amendment is/does.

This is incorrect. An important case is Marsh vs Alabama. [1]

A person was distributing fliers in a 'company town.' Company towns were essentially privately owned 'towns' on privately owned property. They were told to stop and leave, they refused, and were arrested for trespass. The case eventually made its way to the Supreme Court where it was thrown out. Wiki has a pretty nice synopsis of the critical point:

---

The state had attempted to analogize the town's rights to the rights of homeowners to regulate the conduct of guests in their home. The Court rejected that contention by noting that ownership "does not always mean absolute dominion". The court pointed out that the more an owner opens his property up to the public in general, the more his rights are circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who are invited in.

---

That's unlikely to matter here but it's an important nuance to the 1st Amendment. It's also important for the future because it will, sooner or later, likely end up applying to social media companies who are doing everything they can frame themselves as a digital 'public square' for speech.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama

> It can be both

It can and perhaps should, I agree. But whether it actually does, I am not sure.

Wait so the 5th amendment protects diaries from snooping siblings?
4th you meant?
> The intent of 1A is to protect the freedom of speech from those in power.

The entire First Amendment is one sentence:

> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nowhere in there does it say anything about "those in power" in a way that it could possibly apply to a private party.

It is a capitalism issue.

But it's also a free speech issue. You're conflating free speech and the First Amendment, but they are not the same thing, and matters of free speech do not begin and end with the First Amendment.

If there's no government for the 1st Amendment to protect from, then there's no 1st Amendment.
If people these days were human—rather than erect animals—they’d boycott companies like this into bankruptcy. The eternal consoomer just lies down and takes it.
I seem to recall that when conservatives were getting banned from social media (or any place else), the prevailing attitude was "it's a private company, and they don't owe you anything, so they can ban someone for any reason they want." Now when it's a sympathetic target suddenly nobody is saying that? People are even invoking the First Amendment, which was laughed at back then.
The difference is conservatives voices were always the ones getting the most exposure online. Their whining back then was purely political and completely unfounded. And now that they're in power and actively censoring people, it should be apparent to all how this constant appeal to free speech and the 1st amendment was deeply hypocritical.
The difference is that conservatives generally get banned for being disrespectful and hateful. E.g. conservatives generally don't get banned for saying that they disagree with gay marriage, they get banned for using slurs, insulting people, etc.