[joshuamerrill]

I began my career in a classified environment working on government satellite programs.

In my first week on the job, I was told, explicitly, that if I shared Classified or Controlled Unclassified information over unapproved channels, I would be reprimanded—likely fired, or less likely, prosecuted.

It was also made clear that safeguarding the nation's secrets from the carelessness of others was my responsibility, too.

It is mind-boggling that 18 people were on this thread, and none of them ever suggested that this discussion would be better served in a SCIF. To say nothing of SecDef starting the thread on Signal in the first place.

How many other such threads are active at the highest levels of government right now?

Does Chinese intelligence know?

I'm not suggesting punishment, or even prosecution, for the people involved. But the idea that this breach can occur with no accountability, consequences, or operational changes is unacceptable.

[cjohnson318]

Why shouldn't punishment or prosecution be suggested. I've worked with classified information, and I would have been held accountable for my actions, why shouldn't they? I'm tired of this Too Important To Have Consequences business. It defeats the whole purpose of having qualifications, and security, and rules of any kind.

[Aeolun]

> I'm tired of this Too Important To Have Consequences business

Sure, but short of something similar to the UH CEO, do you think anything will actually happen to them?

If they’re doing this then the president presumably knows and does too. Even if they get prosecuted and convicted (after years of legal nonsense) they’d just get pardoned.

[cjohnson318]

No, I don't think anything will change, but I'm still tired of it.

[rcpt]

Anything less than criminal prosecution would be an abomination of justice.

[Galanwe]

Well once you've stated that the president is immune and can pardon whoever for whatever, there's really not much to do. The US needs a new constitution to enforce this, otherwise the very concept of justice cannot exist.

[vFunct]

Absolutely not going to happen with the opposition party existing simply to supply Israel with more weapons. Chuck Schumer, the highest ranking opposition leader, the other day openly stated "My job is to make sure the left supports Israel".

Why would that level of anti-democratic corruption have any interest in justice, when the very core of that party is based on maintaining racist injustice around the world?

The only thing we can hope for is that our system collapses and our economy weakens, while foreign economies grow.

[maeil]

In the US, you can fly multiple planes into skyscrapers, rape three whole kindergartens, and lynch an entire race to extermination. As long as you then win the next election before you get convicted, you're in the clear.

This is the United States of America.

[chrisco255]

The U.S. doesn't need a new constitution. If you don't like the current president, you vote for a new one in 4 years. That's how it works.

[Galanwe]

If there is anything to learn from the current situation IMHO, it's that 1) the US needs a stronger constitution to prevent a take over, and 2) it needs a new election system to avoid binary elections, which lead to extreme policy turnover and candidate fatigue.

There's nothing wrong with writing a new constitution. France is at its 5th iteration, and some candidates propose a 6th republic, nothing dictates that you're supposed to get it right on the first try.

[chrisco255]

The U.S. is the world's oldest democracy. It is functioning just fine.

France has been toppled by internal revolutions and external enemies multiple times in the time that the U.S. has existed. It's not an example to aspire to.

[hamasho]

Honestly, I'm giving up hoping for even a fraction of deserved punishment too. It's hard to handle the emotional dissonance I feel repeatedly when I see injustice, so I've adjusted myself to expect minimal or no punishment and just hope things improve a little. I know this is exactly what those people who repeatedly do malicious things want to happen, and I'm not suggesting we give up seeking social justice. I just can't handle the rage I feel every time or I'll suffer from severe depression again. I need to save my willpower to still hope for a better world and to encourage or support people who are actually working to improve society.

[0xEF]

I'm in the same boat. This whole thing is a War of Attrition, and my enemies are willing because I am getting too old and increasingly stressed out to keep up with and counter their irrationality. I honestly don't know where they get the energy to continuously be so stupid as to take classified information to a group chat, encrypted or not, like they're planning a night out.

These morons are going to get American citizens killed due to gross incompetence. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that half my country said "yep, let's go with these guys" when they saw a bunch of bungling Nazis yelling at clouds like something out of Hogan's Heroes. I'd laugh at the absurdity of it all if I didn't think we were in genuine danger.

[mandmandam]

> I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that half my country said "yep, let's go with these guys" when they saw a bunch of bungling Nazis yelling at clouds like something out of Hogan's Heroes.

I'm still trying to square how 98% of American voters went for candidates promising to continue arming the world's most live-streamed genocide, even with all those protests; even with all the footage we've seen.

How it didn't end after the Al-Nasr babies story, or after Biden was caught laundering lies about beheaded babies, or the NYT laundering lies about mass rape, I just don't know. And still the Greens couldn't get 5%?

There's something deeply dark and disturbed across the entirety of American society, and it seems like most of us can't even see it... Well, the consequences will arrive regardless.

[devaler]

> I'm still trying to square how 98% of American voters went for candidates promising to continue arming the world's most live-streamed genocide, even with all those protests; even with all the footage we've seen

in case you’re not being flippant and genuinely believe what you’re saying, it’s because we had only two viable candidates, one of whom should never have been legitimized. the line of thinking you present throws the baby out with the bathwater and represents a false choice. it comes across as saying that you’d rather do nothing than do something to—if not move things in the right direction—at least make it easier to permit the right direction in the future. no, instead you or others like you choose to exercise your cynical blend of moral superiority, demonstrating that you care more about your own sense of self worth than actually, you know, holding your nose and doing something. holders of that philosophy can’t seem to stand the smell of ‘imperfect’, regardless of how much damage they’ll allow to happen in the name of some false standard.

[mandmandam]

Zero flippancy, none.

> we had only two viable candidates

That's a major part of the problem, and not one to be ignored or accepted.

> the line of thinking you present throws the baby out with the bathwater and represents a false choice.

Nope. It's simple facts. Both 'viable' candidates promised to continue arming a nation which is currently conducting genocide, as confirmed by basically every major human rights group and even some Israeli genocide scholars. That's thoroughly illegal by long-held, hard-won domestic and international law.

You can argue as to why that is, or accuse people who say so of "cycnicism" and "moral superiority", but it's a fact and needs to be said.

There is NO good reason for Harris to have ignored the wishes of the vast majority (77%) of her voter base in order to keep arming mass slaughter. Turning around on that one choice would have won her the election in a landslide, and anyone who looked at the polls knew it.

> you care more about your own sense of self worth

Again, it's simple facts. America is so thoroughly depraved that 98% of voters chose to go for someone arming an active genocide.

Not about me, not about my self worth (bro, I'm an anonymous account with basically no reputation to win or lose here). It's about America, and how a large part of it got conned into thinking that voting for a genocidaire was the right and practical thing to do somehow.

If genocide was properly considered as beyond the pale; far, far over any basic red line for human decency, then Americans would have gone for a third party candidate, or forced a change in nominations from the two 'viable' parties. It's up for debate why they didn't do that, but the simple fact is that 98% of US voters voted for continuing a live-streamed series of atrocities.

> holders of that philosophy can’t seem to stand the smell of ‘imperfect’,

The gulf between 'perfect' and 'complicit in genocide' is so, so vast. I refuse to believe that you can't understand that.

[FeloniousHam]

> I'm still trying to square how 98% of American voters went for candidates promising to continue arming the world's most live-streamed genocide, even with all those protests; even with all the footage we've seen.

I assume you're referring to the livestreamed October 7th attacks?

[hn_throwaway_99]

Do you honestly think that (a) Trump's Justice Department would prosecute any of these offenses, and (b) even if so, that Trump wouldn't just pardon anyone involved?

[cjohnson318]

Yeah, there's no way anything is going to happen to these guys. I'm saying that's a great suggestion, and one that everyone should be able to agree on.

But yeah, I agree with you. Nothing is going to happen. Just like no one at the top has been held to any kind of a standard at all since maybe Nixon. Who knows, if he had just stuck it out maybe he would have gotten off too.

[belter]

The corruption is now, total and absolute. A complete Nero Court like the decadent days of the end of the Roman Empire.

"Trump’s crypto empire set to expand with new stablecoin and investment fund offerings" - https://apnews.com/article/trump-crypto-world-liberty-truth-...

"...Witkoff and his father, Trump’s special diplomatic envoy Steve Witkoff, helped launch World Liberty Financial with Trump and his sons last year. Under the terms outlined on the company’s website, a Trump-owned company has the “right to receive 75% of the net protocol revenues” from World Liberty Financial after expenses..."

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18077789-dying-every-day

[_Tev]

Just a nitpick: Nero was nowhere close to "the end of the Roman Empire".

[poulsbohemian]

We all know this is the likely outcome, but Congress should use its powers to force the Trump administration to be public in not prosecuting and in pardoning, for the purposes of upholding rule of law to the extent possible. And the forth estate needs to throw both in their face to ensure the public understands both how everything about both what they did, and how the Trump administration will respond, is both unlawful and harmful to our country.

[adrr]

Do you think they’ll get prosecuted? I am willing to bet money that congress won’t even have hearings on it.

[reverius42]

Congress is already having hearings (at the committee level): https://www.axios.com/2025/03/24/congress-yemen-signal-hegse...

But it's not clear that will progress to anything further.

[asteroidburger]

The Senate Intelligence Committee already held a hearing today: https://www.npr.org/2025/03/25/nx-s1-5339484/signal-war-plan...

[belter]

Where the director of the Intelligence Services, refused to say, if she was participating on the Signal thread with her government issued phone, or with her personal phone...

[sethammons]

Long pause: "I don't recall."

The exact legal advice passed on to me around answering questions in a deposition played out live; wild.

[chrisco255]

None of what they said was actually classified, and if the conversation included the president and vice president, then they inherently decide what is and is not classified. The power of the executive branch is vested in the president.

[mikeyouse]

This didn't age well..

1. The conversation didn't include the President. Here's the full participant list for that thread: https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did:plc:on5oeyw...

2. There was tons of classified material shared including specific flight times and weapons systems. Here's a helpful side-by-side on what operational details are by default classified as Secret: https://bsky.app/profile/secretsandlaws.bsky.social/post/3ll...

[mullingitover]

Doesn’t matter, they were conducting government business on a clandestine private system with the intent of evading public records laws. Literally the crime they endlessly accused Clinton of.

[chrisco255]

They have to archive the messages and they have staffers in those chats whose job is to do just that. The Biden administration used Signal as well. It's perfectly fine as long as it's archived.

[mullingitover]

Two problems with this:

How were the staffers archiving the disappearing messages?

What evidence do you have that the Biden administration conducted official government business on Signal?[1]

If they were above board and legal with this they wouldn’t have forced their republican congressional oversight committee to drag them into hearings.

[1] https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-cia-director-blames-biden-2...

[skyyler]

Are the reports of the chat making use of Signal's auto-deleting feature incorrect then?

[vharuck]

The information they discussed is almost always classified. If somebody were to declassify it so that these discussions could take place on insecure devices at insecure locations, then it's gross incompetence. There's a reason this kind of information is classified.

This is like ripping the warning sticker off an oxygen tank and pretending that makes it safe to use while smoking.

[cjohnson318]

I'm pretty sure most of it was classified, which is why they chose Signal instead of WhatsApp.

[outside1234]

But have you considered that they are Billionaires and therefore can do whatever they want?

[jjallen]

I don’t think everyone involved in this fiasco are billionaires.

[vichle]

They will be before this is over.

[belter]

The alternative explanation, is that they have so much dirt on Trump, they can't be fired...

[cjohnson318]

Like my dad always said, "money talks and shit walks".

[mandeepj]

The problem is that most of those 18 people are just random folks picked on the premise of just one qualification: THey'd be Yes Man/Woman!! They aren't career professionals. I believe that explains the mess they've created and their incompetent approach to their duties.

It's still not too late to impeach that entire shack of clowns.

[davidw]

These are the same folks who scrubbed the Navajo Code Talkers from the DoD web site for being "DEI" or some such.

[fragmede]

we replaced them with DUI hires.

[feb]

For those of us who are not used to the acronyms, DUI means Driving Under Influence. Similar term is DWI, Driving While Intoxicated.

[MandieD]

That is brilliant, and it’s heartbreaking that it’s brilliant.

[fragmede]

I can't take credit for it, I think it traces back to Lauren Tucker's substack, but someone certainly did before that. Then again, someone else popularized it given recent events.

https://dowhatmatters.medium.com/dei-to-dui-cronyism-undermi...

[ModernMech]

> It's still not too late to impeach that entire shack of clowns.

The problem is that the people in control of the power to impeach are also picked for being yes men/women. It's yes-men all the way down by design.

[jimbokun]

It’s Trump’s one true talent.

He got the Supreme Court and the judiciary leaning his way in his first term. Congress is controlled by either his Republican primary candidates, or Republicans who are too afraid to cross him.

Now he’s purging from the federal branch anyone who is not completely ideologically loyal to him. That is the true purpose of Doge.

[deepsun]

For years I've been taught that US political system is based on checks and balances. Now I see that just like in any other country it was based on morals of people: voters, elected, and appointed.

[pjc50]

Like running both your "redundant" fiber through the same conduit, there isn't a second backup public to demand better.

People demanded this and they got it eventually.

[intended]

The power of controlling information marketplaces.

Also I suppose it’s crucial to point out that it’s not just controlling the marketplace for news, it also needed one party to be absolutely focused only on winning elections, and eschewing bipartisanship.

[deepsun]

Yes and no: nowadays third-parties can steer the people demands themselves. It became much easier with internet and "web brigades" (recently started utilizing AI as well).

So on one side yes, people demanded it. But on the other side, they were manipulated to think one issue is more important than the other, to think that "the whole system is broken" etc.

[Maken]

Every political system is based on how much people believes on it. Laws are not magic incantations, and there is nothing forcing people to follow what they say.

[deepsun]

Yes, and a big problem is that the belief itself can be manipulated easier by adversaries using internet.

[__turbobrew__]

You forgot the last check, a disgruntled person with a gun.

[deepsun]

Gun is a good thing, but way more important is organization. I mean organization like "when order came everyone stands up and fights no slackers".

Even 10 organized people with no weapons are _way_ more dangerous than one armed person. That's why all autocratic regimes firstly jail/kill organizers (right now it's Turkey). Just having eyes in 10 different places is more important.

As Jefferson really liked (proposed by Franklin): "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God."

[StackRanker3000]

I’m going to respectfully disagree with you there. Trump’s success as a politician is solely down to three factors.

Firstly, he has an insatiable desire for attention, admiration, and generally benefitting himself. That’s what causes his drive.

Secondly, he has no scruples or adheres to any morals or ethics whatsoever, he is completely ruthless. This allows him to do and say whatever serves him the most in any given situation.

Lastly, he has a specific type of charisma that has purchase with a certain segment of the people.

That’s is the full extent of it. He has no other skills or useful attributes. Anything else, especially if it’s at all technical or practical, comes from the people he’s surrounded himself with.

To interact with your point, he’s not even particularly adept at enlisting sycophants. Remember his first administration, when numerous aides and associates had both public and private disagreements with him (as one example out of many, I’ll refer to Rex Tillerson calling him a ”fucking moron”). The reason things are different this time is that another set of people are running the show, and they’ve realized that including old establishment Republicans, that have to at least pretend to be serious members of society, would have been a barrier to their agenda.

Turning the judiciary red across the country is especially not something you can attribute to Trump. It’s been a systematic effort by the Republicans (and adjacent organizations such as the Heritage Foundation) over the span of decades. He just happened to be in the position to make the appointments.

[verisimi]

Attention, lack of scruples and charisma, are prerequisites for ALL politicians. Obama, Reagan, Clinton were the same, no?

[StackRanker3000]

> Attention, lack of scruples and charisma, are prerequisites for ALL politicians.

Sure, to some extent. Trump is an extreme outlier though, at least on the first two. And my main point was mainly that he doesn’t have anything else.

> Obama, Reagan, Clinton were the same, no?

Again, to some degree. Obama and Clinton especially were also shrewd politicians and had skills and strengths in addition to the attributes mentioned above.

[ModernMech]

Most politicians are sociopaths, whereas Trump is a narcissistic psychopath (aka malignant narcissist). You encounter sociopaths everyday, but a narcissistic psychopath is next level. Those are the Hitlers, Stalins, Saddam Husseins of the world. Or if you want to look outside of politics, the Charles Mansons and Jim Jones of the world.

[3np]

Vance' offices response is very telling of his priorities and supports this view.

[hn_throwaway_99]

Vance has to be the world's biggest boot licker.

I cannot understand at all the complete lack of self respect he must have, solely for the acquisition of power.

[jimbokun]

As far as I can tell almost every current Republican politician is roughly tied for this honor.

The rest retired or got primaried.

[belter]

“My fear with Trump was always that he didn't have great solutions.”

  - J.D. Vance

“People listen to what their political leaders are telling them, and my view is both that Trump is tapping into some racially ugly attitudes, but also that he is leading people to racially ugly attitudes.”

  - J.D. Vance

“I’m a Never Trump guy”

  - J.D. Vance

“My god what an idiot”

  - J.D. Vance (on Trump)

“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”

  - J.D. Vance

“I can’t stomach Trump.”

   - J.D. Vance

“I think there’s a chance, if I feel like Trump has a really good chance of winning, that I might have to hold my nose and vote for Hillary Clinton.”

  - J.D. Vance

“Trump's biggest failure as a political leader is that he sees the worst in people, and he encourages the worst in people.”

  - J.D. Vance

[nobody9999]

How dare you!

Donald Trump "is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."

[belter]

Also known as the Golden Grovelers: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/s8PdOgVMg48

[defrost]

If only the US had of had a real choice other than shite and shite-lite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oxQ5fmiI9M

[nobody9999]

>the Golden Grovelers

I don't know what those are. I'm sure they're whatever you think they are.

Even though it really kills the joke when you have to explain it, I'm guessing there are generational and national barriers to getting that reference.

I was comparing Donald Trump to Raymond Shaw[0]. You can assume I'm doing so facetiously or you can assume I'm serious. I'm not sure myself.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manchurian_Candidate_(1962...

[fuzzfactor]

>U.S. national-security leaders

Those aren't leaders, quite the opposite, nothing but typical Trump-like non-leaders disgracing leadership positions.

>those 18 people are just random folks

OTOH if you picked 18 random patriotic Americans, odds are none would be that far below average at defending what normal Americans have always held dear.

[nla]

On the subject of a 'shack of clowns,' now do the Afganistan withdrawal.

[pathOf_aFineMan]

Kind of off topic as that was the previous Trump administration, but they were also a 'shack of clowns'

[egl2020]

Heck, one of my co-workers at a FAANG freaked out when he realized that he had used his personal phone to take a picture of a meeting blackboard instead of his corp phone. He spent the afternoon trying to figure out how to scrub the photo.

[gonzo41]

There is a great thread on r/army where people are listing out all the Military careers destroyed by minor mistakes that pale in comparison to this.

[Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe]

I'd be really interested in a link!

[fragmede]

I had that problem, but the FAANG I was at was also the same company as the one running my phone's OS, so it wasn't as bad.

[ghostpepper]

> Does Chinese intelligence know?

How likely is it that all 18 of those people were accessing from mobile operating systems with no known working exploit chain? I would say pretty unlikely.

[exikyut]

If they're "just" using Signal, they're likely "just" using stock Android if there isn't a policy requiring iPhones in lockdown mode. It's a very good question as to whether such a policy exists.

[moshun]

At this point it wouldn’t surprise me if they were using free Android phones they won in a raffle set up by foreign intelligence agents

[lmm]

Which do you think is more likely to be under foreign control and why? Bearing in mind that iPhones are made in China.

[sterlind]

stock iPhones run 100% Apple software, afaik. from drivers to the shell it's one company. the hardware is one series of models by one company.

each Android vendor has a completely random fork of AOSP with who knows what kernel patches, out-of-tree drivers, unremovable apps and customizations. you're trusting an enchilada of your mobile carrier, Google, Samsung/OnePlus/whoever, plus all their vendors.

Android can be highly secure. the NSA's Fishbowl project used vanilla AOSP + SELinux + IPSec on closely scrutinized hardware to make a phone that can be used for Secret text messages. the cheap prepaid phone you buy at T-Mobile is not that.

[lmm]

> stock iPhones run 100% Apple software, afaik. from drivers to the shell it's one company. the hardware is one series of models by one company.

> each Android vendor has a completely random fork of AOSP with who knows what kernel patches, out-of-tree drivers, unremovable apps and customizations. you're trusting an enchilada of your mobile carrier, Google, Samsung/OnePlus/whoever, plus all their vendors.

That cuts both ways though. Any exploit for iPhone works on a lot of high value targets. An exploit for one android phone may well not apply to another. If we're talking about state actors, well, probably both are compromised, but the iPhone would be the priority IMO.

[anderber]

Also, Steve Witkoff was in Moscow during the Signal text chain.

[ohgr]

At least here in the UK our politicians delete all their messages on WhatsApp https://www.politico.eu/article/the-british-governments-disa...

More seriously, having worked in an undisclosed defence company, we were told that we would be prosecuted if we did this. There were many many security controls in place that prevented this from happening on top of the threat.

[stevenjgarner]

Are you able to share any of those security controls? How do you stop presumably well-intended Signal app users from conferencing? Are you talking about cellular signal blocking, or are you talking about avoiding public networks entirely in favor of Sensitive Compartmented Information Facilities (SCIFs)?

[ohgr]

Many layers of physical controls and regular audits mostly.

[lmm]

What does a physical control mean in this context? Like, disabling that part of the phone's touchscreen?

[ThePowerOfFuet]

Think personal devices not being permitted beyond the entrance of the building, stored in a Faraday box.

[Alupis]

So in other words... nothing stopped anyone from doing this either. Except the fear of potential punishment.

[HWR_14]

I'm not sure how you ignored the "many layers of physical controls" part of the comment.

[whattheheckheck]

Why are you specifically calling out you are not suggesting punishment nor prosecution?

[joshuamerrill]

Because I don't know whether either of those are appropriate.

There aren't many comparable breaches to this one. The closest in modern times may be Hillary Clinton's email server being used for government business. In that case, the FBI investigated and declined to bring charges, under the expectation that a jury would be unlikely to render a guilty verdict.

Okay, fine. But the FBI investigated and laid out the facts.

My fear is that the current administration sees this as a PR problem. No, this was an operational failure. We should feel lucky that merely an American journalist was added by mistake.

We should expect the FBI to investigate this, too. But I worry the facts are too inconvenient for even that level of accountability.

[bb88]

Why would we expect Patel and Bongino to investigate anything here? They were put there to investigate anyone else other than the current administration.

Why would any FBI agent take a risk on investigating anyone potentially in current or future administrations? They'll get fired later when the political winds change.

[tromp]

With the current administration I expect that fierce loyalty trumps both competence and accountability. Sadly, I expect to see many more such examples of amateur hour.

[codewench]

18 USC 793(f) seems to apply here:

"Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing ... through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust ... and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."

We can only guess about the "prompt reporting of the issue", but from what I've seen and heard I'm willing to put money on the fact that, no, this was not reported.

[throwaway2037]

    > through gross negligence

If you talk to someone with a law degree (judge, lawyer, whatever), they will tell you that "gross negligence" is very high barrier to cross in US law. Most people misunderstand that. It is very unlikely that any of the people in that chat group would be found grossly negligent, especially for their first mistake. Please do not read that last sentence as an apology or excuse for their behaviour; they should be reprimanded for it.

[bb88]

Why would the FBI investigate anyone who would be pardoned by the president anyway?

[belter]

Don't worry, Courts are going away also...

"Speaker Mike Johnson floats eliminating federal courts as GOP ramps up attacks on judges" - https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/speaker-mike-johns...

[belter]

And Law Firms..

"Donald Trump widens war on legal industry with order targeting Jenner & Block" - https://www.ft.com/content/4f1aca93-62b5-419f-9182-a3a10bbe7...

"Legal community shaken by a powerful law firm's decision to give in to Trump's demands" - https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-administration/legal-...

"Trump’s crackdown on top law firms spreads to Congress" - https://www.politico.com/news/2025/03/24/retribution-big-law...

"The person predicted the impact could extend beyond Congress: “If you’re Google or Meta or Apple – you’re thinking, ‘Do I really want to use these firms?’ That could make it harder to work with the White House...."

[imglorp]

Yes and the legislature after that.

These are all smart people, so it boggles the mind to wonder how they can install a totalitarian regime without knowing the next two steps in the playbook.

[dcow]

Gabbard confirmed that no classified information was contained in the conversation.

[adgjlsfhk1]

And promptly proceeded to tell the same senators that she couldn't share the information with them because it was classified.

[kevin_thibedeau]

They are playing with semantics on minor technicalities that are irrelevant because federal code is expansive enough to make this breach a clear violation of the law on multiple counts. The Senators rightly grilled these incompetents on why couldn't they disclose the nature of the communications if they were unclassified and not sensitive.

The capable adults from the 45th administration are gone because they were too responsible. You can see what happens when you draw from a pool of nothing but drooling sub-80s.

[ceejayoz]

"We are currently clean on OPSEC" is an odd thing to throw into the chat if it doesn't involve any secrets.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/03/26/us/trump-news

> “1215et: F-18s LAUNCH (1st strike package),” Hegseth wrote in the chat. “1345: Trigger Based F-18 Strike Window Starts (Target Terrorist is @his Known Location so SHOULD BE ON TIME—also, Strike Drones Launch (MQ-9s).”

If I were a potential "target terrorist" and this chat had leaked before the strikes, I'd make damned sure I wasn't at my "known location" that day.

[xeromal]

But also decided she couldn't share the same information with the committee.

[Analemma_]

“We investigated ourselves and found ourselves not guilty.”

[MPSFounder]

Traitors like her being in the highest offices of the land makes me sick. I will never forget images of her meeting Assad after that sob gazed children with chemical weapons, or her voting present to an impeachment. I wouldn't believe that traitor if she told me the Russians were at my doorstep. We have a circus filled with clowns unfortunately. The desk with Patel and her being interrogated is such a clown show.

[thefreeman]

“confirmed”

[mandeepj]

> The closest in modern times may be Hillary Clinton's email server being used for government business.

Wait, there's more!! https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/cummings-jared-kushner...

[rcpt]

T took a top secret binder about Russian election interference to his beach house and we never got it back.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2023/12/politics/missing-rus...

[lmeyerov]

There is no reason to believe we are lucky. Instead, this is more of a canary in the coal mine that the DOD OIG and Congress are less able to excuse for a long-running hazard.

How much of the administration, for how long, and for what, is using hackable systems and without mandated audit trails for protected communications? Whether external hackers are already successfully snooping, or internal cover-ups are happening of ongoing corruption, both are deeply problematic, and can be happening in parallel to stupid leaks like this. Likewise, we can't even investigate and cleanup properly because these people are illegally deleting the forensic data for their illegal and insecure actions.

It's not even a surprise. Ex: It's already pretty well documented to embarrassing extents like the president flushing official documents down toilets and clogging them. Ex: The admins use of signal was a thing in the first term as well. The only new thing afaict is the public and checks-and-balances people have the evidence in front of them of illegal use when accepting the lies and criminality.

[georgemcbay]

> We should feel lucky that merely an American journalist was added by mistake.

This time. We also have no idea how many times this has happened without the unique circumstances where the person incorrectly included would draw attention to the leak as part of their job as a journalist.

Generally speaking, if something like this can happen once, it has probably happened more than once.

We probably are very lucky that the time it very publicly happened was fairly early on in the tenure of this dumpster fire of a Presidential cabinet.

Of course instead of them seeing it this way they are certain to keep going after the journalist in an attempt to make him the bad guy of the story to project blame away, because that is what incompetent people do.

[jameshart]

Right, among the reasons not to use Signal for this sort of thing is that it is explicitly difficult to verify within Signal that a contact is who you think it is. It can be a secure channel if used correctly. This shows these people are not using it correctly.

[mulmen]

> FBI investigated and declined to bring charges

Does the FBI make this determination? Wouldn’t that be the Attorney General’s call?

[bb88]

Yeah, they do. The US Attorneys and the Attorney General are allowed to give input typically into whether any investigation is prosecutable.

Now did they investigate it? Probably not.

What's interesting to me is that personal phones were not seized for forensic examination though.

Were the phones hacked by foreign agents? What other uses was signal used for?

[dragonwriter]

That's backwards. Prosecutors don't give input, they decide whether to charge. The FBI investigates, but they aren’t the ones who are responsible for taking cases to court.

[bb88]

The FBI makes charging decisions all the time. The FBI has to be the one to investigate charges.

Now whether or not said charges are prosecutable is the job of the DoJ.

The demarcation line between the two is when the charges are filed in federal court.

Hillary Clinton was famously not charged by the FBI director Comey back in 2016. Not because she committed any crime, but because they wouldn't likely get a conviction at trial.

[tayo42]

> We should feel lucky that merely an American journalist was added by mistake.

Might not even be the first time already, just the first time they messed up and we found out...

[nla]

Hunter Biden: Hold my beer.

[chasil]

Assuming this to be true, this conversation is over.

"The Biden administration installed the Signal messaging app on CIA computers and approved it for official government use."

https://pjmedia.com/matt-margolis/2025/03/25/has-the-staffer...

[bb88]

It looks like it was approved only for CIA use with permissible use. Even though it was installed, did not mean it was suitable for all communications.

Here's the important relevant quote:

    "It is permissible to use to communicate and coordinate
     for work purposes. Provided that any decisions that are 
     made are also recorded through formal channels. So 
     those were procedures that were implemented. My staff 
     implemented those processes," Ratcliffe said.

    "My communications, to be clear, in a Signal message 
     group were entirely permissible and lawful and did not 
     include classified information," he added.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cia-director-john-ratcliffe-defen...

[sorcerer-mar]

It's reasonable /u/chasil doesn't know this, but obviously there's no chance that Ratcliffe doesn't know this. Really makes one think!

"My communications weren't classified" — my is doing some work there.

[bb88]

The classified community is one built on trust -- fundamentally that you won't leak information to others, perceived enemies or otherwise. This extends to elected or appointed officials and federal judges ruling on classified matters.

But honestly most of the people in the group will be loyal to the US regardless of leader's political affiliation.

But what they do ask is that classified information remain secret -- particularly if you're in harms way.

[somenameforme]

There's also the temporal issue. Communications are classified, or not, after their creation. So we might add:

'My communications weren't classified at the time I made them.'

[flyingcircus3]

I think that there is a parallel story to this one that is equally as interesting. There is one group of consumers of this story who see the receipts provided by Jeffery Goldberg, along with confirmation of their authenticity from a spokesperson at the National Security Council, followed by admissions by cabinet member participants of the Signal chat in hearings before congress, and those consumers of all this news can only conclude that the evidence is about as conclusive as you can get that Jeffery Goldberg is telling the truth, that these people are sharing the names of active intelligence officers, and describing imminent plans of action of the US military.

Then there is another group of consumers of this story, with the same access to all of the same evidence, and all of the same first person confirmations, who confidently declare the argument that this might be illegal null and void because Joe Biden allowed the CIA to use signal, and are persuaded away from accepting all of that evidence by articles with that contain such gems as "what the media wont tell you about the Atlantic hit piece", "Democrats talking points on this story quickly unraveled", and "help us continue to expose the lefts desperate attempts to manufacture scandals".

How can propaganda be so effective that people lose the skill of object permanence?

[chasil]

I have little doubt that Jeffery Goldberg is telling the truth.

So, was he added to the conversation inadvertently, or was it deliberate?

On the question of whether the use of the application was negligent, well, that is now moot.

[rcpt]

There is just no way this is deliberate. They have nothing to gain from this.

We need to stop thinking these guys are playing 3D chess when they try to shove the pieces up their nose

[bb88]

Well the FBI investigated it already -- even though the Hillary Clinton investigation took years -- and said there would not be charges brought.

It's a win on government efficiency I guess (no more year long investigations). But also, this is clearly not the first time they used Signal, and it won't be the last.

[flyingcircus3]

Just to clarify on what is moot, you are claiming that sharing classified, perhaps TS/SCI information, over signal, as well as deleting the messages, which are both illegal when isolated from any specific communication method, has all been blessed as above board and legal, simply because Joe Biden allowed Signal usage at the CIA?

Couldn't every whistleblower and double agent from now on just make sure to do their leaking over signal, and therefore receive the magical immunity your logic claims signal usage provides?

[20after4]

There is also a large group who think it's a nothing burger and that Goldberg is simply lying or exaggerating about the nature and seriousness of the messages that were omitted from the reporting.

[flyingcircus3]

Luckily for those people, more messages were released this morning, with times, planes and weapons described.

[subjectsigma]

lol no, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about

[sarcasmatwork]

Incorrect.

"Clinton has said that she never used her personal email to send information that was marked classified at the time, although some of her emails had been retroactively classified.

Comey says that's not true. Of 30,000 emails Clinton turned over to the State Department in 2014, FBI investigators found 110 emails containing information that was classified at the time the email was sent. Eight of those were top secret, the highest level of classification."

"Another 2,000 emails have been retroactively classified since they were sent, Comey said."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/05/484785586...

[dudinax]

In reading deeper, many or most of these "classified" emails are comments on news stories that revealed information that another department would rather keep secret, such as news articles about CIA drone strikes, while the CIA at the time wouldn't acknowledge they had a a drone program.

Clinton argued at the time that such emails aren't and shouldn't be classified, since she didn't discuss any information sourced from the CIA, but only the publicly available news article. That seems to me to be at least a reasonable stance.

[vdqtp3]

> Clinton argued at the time that such emails aren't and shouldn't be classified, since she didn't discuss any information sourced from the CIA, but only the publicly available news article. That seems to me to be at least a reasonable stance.

It's absolutely a reasonable stance. However, the rules aren't reasonable. For instance, as someone who held a clearance at the time, discussing/disseminating the Snowden leaks that were published in national news was considered a violation.

[jimt1234]

And Hillary sat in front of Congress for 11 hours.

[rschiavone]

Yeah that should be the bare minimum

[itsanaccount]

because hackernews is full of people who cultivate a specific naivety when it comes to power so they don't have to contemplate their responsibility or position therin. its endemic and I have a hobby pointing it out again, and again, and again.

[FreebasingLLMs]

Because he wants the behavior to change, as it is a risk to the country's security. Typically these types of things at this level rarely result in prosecution; the compromise typically is a change in behavior / promise to do better / etc.

[defrost]

A US public watchdog is now sueing for action to be taken.

The people in the chat group included Vice President JD Vance, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, various other Trump administration officials and aides and notably Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

  As American Oversight lawyers pointed out in their lawsuit Tuesday, Rubio is also the acting archivist of the United States and, as such, “is aware of the violations” that allegedly occurred.

  The lawsuit, brought by the watchdog group American Oversight, requests that a federal judge formally declare that Hegseth and other officials on the chat violated their duty to uphold laws around the preservation of official communications.

  Those laws are outlined in the Federal Records Act and, according to lawyers for American Oversight, if agency heads refuse to recover or protect their communications, the national archivist should ask the attorney general to step in.

~ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pete-hegseth-sued-over-signal...

Time will tell how this buttery Signals chat plays out .. it's certainly given other many other countries more fuel to ridicule the USofA, it's hard to believe these clowns are our partners in global "intelligence".

[TomK32]

In normal times this might even be something Congress should be interested in. But instead I wouldn't be surprised if the journalist will get prosecuted on grounds that he didn't leave the group as soon as he noticed the mistake.

[throwaway5752]

I have read that one of them (thanks to sibling commenter, yes, Witkoff) was traveling in Russia while on this group chat, and that the chat disclosed the identity of an intelligence officer.

[jgalt212]

When you get to a certain level, you believe the rules don't apply to you. There are many examples of this, but I won't list any for fear of promoting false equivalencies.

[chris_wot]

In the Trump Whitehouse, not only do you believe the rules don't apply to you, but actually the rules don't apply to you.

[riehwvfbk]

Use Signal, an encrypted platform from the CIA with a charismatic public persona: the horror! Use an unencrypted email server in a closet for years: that's nothing.

[root_axis]

Years of investigations and congressional hearings is nothing?

[katbyte]

I assume the email server you are referring to is the one Elon installed and then fed all sorts of peoples private information to

[chris_wot]

Sheesh, false equivalence much? An unencrypted mail server is also awful.

[arbitrary_name]

>charismatic public persona

You have weird taste in men.

[riehwvfbk]

Discrimination much?

[ferguess_k]

I actually think the major powers mostly know what the others are doing.

[unyttigfjelltol]

And should! That's how we remain, figuratively, minutes to midnight for generations, and not closer.

[monksy]

> information over unapproved channels, I would be reprimanded—likely fired, or less likely, prosecuted.

Potential penalty of death as well.

Also lets not forget those messages had a 4w expiary date.

[belter]

All the President's Men:

https://youtu.be/ihHU3IVVrfM?t=477

https://youtu.be/isNlC0RYOyE?t=565

[hn_throwaway_99]

> But the idea that this breach can occur with no accountability, consequences, or operational changes is unacceptable.

There will be no accountability, consequences, or operational changes because the American people (a plurality of them anyway) voted for this. I like how people are even bothering to bring up the risk of prosecution, as if Trump wouldn't just pardon the people involved anyway.

Look, I am as disgusted as you are, but I continue to be impressed/disgusted by the neverending levels of shamelessness shown by Trump and his cronies:

1. Trump is now somehow blaming the reporter for this, calling him a "sleazebag".

2. Probably doesn't need repeating, but all the chants about "lock her up" against Hillary Clinton were due to her supposed mishandling of classified information. Yeah, waiting to hear all the outrage from the right over this 10x more egregious example.

3. I still continue to be awed by Hegseth railing against DEI because it's "anti-merit", as I can't think of an ass clown less qualified to be Sec of Defense.

Nothing will change unless the American people, at large, decide to punish those at the ballot box who exhibit these behaviors, and so far they have not been willing to do that.

[CoastalCoder]

I'm concerned that what brings change won't be a smarter electorate, but instead losing a war or having another civil war.

I'm somewhat politically conservative, and I still cannot make any sense of the plurality that voted Trump into office again. I really wonder if I'm in some kind of echo chamber that prevents me from understanding their perspective.

[SantalBlush]

Their grievances begin with Reaganomics, then NAFTA, then the war in Afghanistan. All Republican projects. Now, instead of directing the blame where it belongs, they've adopted an even more 'enlightened' and destructive form of conservativism that abides corruption in broad daylight.

[Aeolun]

> I really wonder if I'm in some kind of echo chamber that prevents me from understanding their perspective.

I mean, I understand the ‘burn the world down’ perspective. I just don’t think it’s particularly productive.

[georgeplusplus]

>>>In my first week on the job, I was told, explicitly, that if I shared Classified or Controlled Unclassified information over unapproved channels, I would be reprimanded—likely fired, or less likely, prosecuted.

Now, I’m not replying to you about the morality of what happened or to tell my opinion of what is right and what is wrong.

But do you honestly believe the president is held to the same standard as you?

Would it shock you that they aren’t?

[20after4]

It's not shocking but it is unacceptable. The president should be held to a higher standard, not a lesser one.

[bambax]

No accountability or consequences for anyone is the motto of the Trump administration (or indeed Trump himself, who is a convicted felon).

[dylan604]

First felon I know that has had no issues getting a job or getting a place to live. It's amazing how being a felon makes life so much more difficult for normies, yet actually improved his stature. It's embarrassing no matter which angle it is viewed.

[userbinator]

It's all about the $$$.

[SSLy]

The consequences will arrive by the will of the Trumpist administration.

Levied on the Undesirables only.

[ulfw]

Trump can't fire any of them. Fox News doesn't have enough TV people to poach. Where else did he find his cabinet from?

[reverius42]

Trump won't fire any of them, because nothing they've done displeases him, and displeasing Trump (rather than violating a law, for instance) is the only way to get fired by him.

[excalibur]

> I'm not suggesting punishment, or even prosecution, for the people involved.

I am. Throw the book at them.

[baby]

SCIF?

[rescripting]

Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitive_compartmented_inform...

[dionian]

Was any classified information shared on Signal?

[dredmorbius]

At 11:44 a.m., the account labeled “Pete Hegseth” posted in Signal a “TEAM UPDATE.” I will not quote from this update, or from certain other subsequent texts. The information contained in them, if they had been read by an adversary of the United States, could conceivably have been used to harm American military and intelligence personnel, particularly in the broader Middle East, Central Command’s area of responsibility. What I will say, in order to illustrate the shocking recklessness of this Signal conversation, is that the Hegseth post contained operational details of forthcoming strikes on Yemen, including information about targets, weapons the U.S. would be deploying, and attack sequencing.

From TFA.

The discussion itself wasn't transacting classified documents as such. But as Goldberg makes clear, information of both general sensitivity and immediate tactical significance was disclosed.

[blitzar]

It was confirmed (under oath) that there was no classified information shared, however, the contents of the messages could not be shared with the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence as it is classified information.

[Phelinofist]

English isn't my first language so I might've misunderstood what you wrote, but isn't that contradicting?

[bleuarff]

Yes it is, but it's my understanding that this is the actual testimony from Tulsi Gabbard, part of the conversation.

[parrellel]

Yes. Yes it is.

[adamtaylor_13]

Do we actually believe this was accidental? This seems like the most obvious “oops I leaked it to the press” I’ve ever seen.

Now Europe “accidentally saw” what the American powers were saying and it’s going to influence them.

I’m not at all sold that this was some ball that was dropped.

[angrydev]

The EU knows exactly how the administration feels about them with regards to military support. The Signal thread makes all involved look extremely incompetent. I’m not seeing the advantage if this was planned.

[Centigonal]

I disagree. When you leak to the press, you often do it with a planted source who "leaks" to a journalist on condition of anonymity. Doing it with an "accidental" group chat add like this signals incompetence without any added value.

[jimt1234]

Updated Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to intelligence that which is adequately explained by stupidity

[tonyhart7]

"that if I shared Classified or Controlled Unclassified information over unapproved channels"

You are confuse yourself, THEY ARE THE LAW

these are the most powerful guys in the nation, who decide to catch who and whom??? these guys who decide that not the other way around

[zdragnar]

CISA explicitly promoted Signal for use by top level government officials. The fact that an outsider was invited to a conversation they didn't belong in is troubling, but basically nothing else about this seems to be outside of recommended policy.

The administration is also claiming that there was no confidential information in the conversation, which I think is certainly debatable, but the rest of the story seems overblown to me.

[ModernMech]

You're talking about this document:

https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/guidance-mo...

Which says:

  Organizations may already have these best practices in place, such as secure communication platforms1 and multifactor authentication (MFA) policies. In cases where organizations do not, apply the following best practices to your mobile devices.

And goes on to say:

  Adopt a free messaging application for secure communications that guarantees end-to-end encryption, such as Signal or similar apps.

But concludes:

  Any reference to specific commercial entities, products, processes, or services by service mark, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise, does not constitute or imply endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by CISA.

So they mention signal as an example of an app that they are talking about, but they explicitly state that by mentioning it they are not implying to endorse or recommend or even favor it.

Moreover, the advice doesn't apply to organizations that have their own best practices in place, which the organizations in question certainly do. So the question isn't what CISA recommends it's what the CIA, DoD, Department of State, etc. recommend.

[hyperhello]

“the rest of the story seems overblown” sounds like a thought-terminator to minimize impact.

[tailefer]

You should read the release that CISA put out [0]. The use of Signal for classified discussions is not a suggested use. True, it's not explicitly forbidden, but people entrusted with that access should know better.

Saying that CISA approved Signal (and, in right-wing sources, saying "Biden administration CISA") is an attempt to minimize and distract.

They shouldn't have been texting classified information. Full stop.

[0] https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/2024-12/guidance-mo...

[dionian]

What classified info was in the chat? The only reference I saw to classified info was explicit references to getting out of that medium to discuss classified info

[jandrese]

I have not verified this, but reporting suggests they had targeting data down to the names of individuals in Yemen, as well as flight times and originating sources for the airstrikes, which if leaked would be very valuable to whatever air defenses were in the country. It is not clear if intelligence sources were also potentially compromised.

[dredmorbius]

I've already responded to you above: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43478899>

[dionian]

Is this false? I see it's being downvoted, leading me to believe people question its veracity