[mathgladiator]

It's a good question.

My home was recently destroyed by fire (not a total loss of dwelling, but 95% of contents due to smoke and water), and I'm quitting tech to accept being a rancher and body builder.

I love tech, but tech doesn't love me. So, #yolo on to the next thing.

[Workaccount2]

Just a heads up, this only works well if you have a nice cushion of cash to do it on.

Someone with 30% tech ability will easily out-earn someone with 100% ranching ability. And have way more free time. And live way more comfortably.

Don't be fooled, the greenest grass is in the tech sector (and finance too).

[bluGill]

Ranchers make far more money than you think. They have to manage years where they are losing $100,000 per month, but the good years they make more than enough to make up for that. The hard part is getting started. You can't make a ranch work on just a little bit of land, you need thousands of acres of land in an area where you can get to all those plots every day.

Getting bank loans on that means most ranchers start at 20 with a few acres (that is a ranching/farming hobby) and a full time job to pay the bills - the ranch itself isn't even paying for the land loans, but it is close and their job pays the rest. Then they build trust with the bank and buy more land as it becomes possible. At 40 they have paid off the initial land (or at least inflation means the payments are tiny in current money) and so they are generating enough income to quit the full time job and farm. At 60 they have paid off most of the land which is now worth millions and so are rich by any measure in ways most tech jobs cannot get to (though if you happen to be one of the lucky early people in in a successful startup you are doing much better, your odds as a rancher are probably better than that).

Beware though that ranching is physically hard on the body. Farming is one of the most dangerous jobs humans do, there is a real risk you will die before you get rich. Even if you do get rich there is real risk that you will be in poor health and unable to do it. Or you could end up like my uncle who loved the ranch so much he basically never left it - he died with millions in the bank while wearing clothes he had been patching for 40 years.

[nostrademons]

I figured that the best way to own a ranch is to start a successful tech company, sell it (or parts of it), buy a bunch of ranchland, and then hire ranch hands that always wanted to get into the business but didn't have the capital for it.

That seems to be what all the tech billionaires do. Gates, Bezos, and several old-line tech company heirs are all big ranch holders.

[bluGill]

You run into the same problem of everyone else: there is only so much land and so you compete with everyone, including those ranch hands that want to get into it (and likely have their own holdings they are working when not on your shift). That they are working their own land means they have some ability to out compete you (though their lack of capital means you will have a much larger investment).

Also many states have laws against corporate farmers that can get you.

[iwontberude]

But they have to actually do work, in tech we get to hang out and eat lunch and drink coffee together while we talk about stocks.

[mathgladiator]

I'm going soft ranching as a hobby. Honestly, I want to get a few cattle which I control the inputs too 100% such that get 100% grass fed beef.

My profit is primarily driving down my costs as much as possible such that I can become self sufficient.

My wife and I are carnivores, so our diet is basically beef, butter, bacon, eggs. I'll start with raising chickens such that I can produce at least a dozen a day. Then I'll get beef, and I'll just buy bacon and butter.

I'm designing my barndo right now such that it has a simple living space for me and my wife, and then a big bro science gym where we can work out.

It's the dream right now that I'm clinging too since I'm moving forward. I lost all my stuff, and I'm waiting for insurance adjuster. Fortunately, I had a very good career and I'm in my early 40s, and I'm going to different stuff. I've always wanted land, so I'm going to do it. It's going to be great! (or, I'm deeply traumatized and using optimism to deny the reality of escaping a burning building :shrug: )

Regardless, we should be friends as I love to learn more this. My hope is that I can spend a few years recreating all the 4H knowledge, network with farmers, and just learn new stuff which... isn't tech.

[bluGill]

You can do that on 10 acres, which is affordable near a city. (possible even a reasonable commute to the suburbs. It will feed you but won't otherwise pay the bills (probably not even property taxes!) so figure out how to handle health insurance, and those other details of life.

I know enough about this to know that it isn't for me. It will sometimes be hard dangerous work. There will be late nights and early mornings. You can't take a vacation unless you find someone to cover for you. There will be years when there is a crop failure of some sort and you have nothing to work with. I'm happy working for John Deere where I get to meet and learn about the people doing this but I work my 40 hour weeks and go home.

[lotsofpulp]

>At 60 they have paid off most of the land which is now worth millions and so are rich by any measure in ways most tech jobs cannot get to

A person with the drive and intelligence to start ranching at 20 and put in 80 hours weeks in their youth could have done well in tech too, socking away $100k or more in tax advantaged retirement accounts, all the while having PTO and weekends.

Also, most people like to leave near urban areas with access to airports and a variety of grocery stores and kids' activities and schools filled with kids of other high achievers.

[bluGill]

You can only put $38k/year into tax advantages accounts working for someone else - $20k in the 401k, $10k with a match (that would be a generous match, but not unrealistic), and $8k in an IRA. You can double it if you are married. Everything is is not tax advantaged. If you work for yourself there are other retirement laws.

You can of course put as much as you want into real estate (which if you rent out can give a nice return), or other investments. However the tax advantages do not apply.

Ranchers don't normally put anything into tax advantaged accounts, but they tend to put a large portion of their gross income into real estate. By 60 their take home pay is higher than tech and those large investments have grown to more than most in tech make.

Urban and rural areas allow for different life styles. I've lived both and when I'm in one I miss the other.

[iwontberude]

$7k for IRA contributions in TY24 and TY25

[rurp]

I think their whole point was that it's not just about the money to them. If they love being outside and working with their hands far more than being in an office and can make a living ranching it seems like a smart move to me, regardless of the salary difference.

[Workaccount2]

Yes, there are people like that. Their numbers are greater than zero, but not much more.

Overwhelmingly though, people are romanticizing an existence where the only contact they have with it is through a conduit of financial security and drive by experience. They like hiking and once did an Air bnb experience weekend on a farm.

[jonnybgood]

Not everything is about how much money you’ll make.

[scarface_74]

Yes. But we all have an addiction to food and shelter.

[amanaplanacanal]

In the US, only the poorest of the poor don't have shelter, and even they mostly have food.

[WarOnPrivacy]

> In the US, only the poorest of the poor don't have shelter, and even they mostly have food.

Me+kids spent a decade in hunger-level poverty while staying housed. We usually got basic living expenses covered and what was left over might buy a bag of white rice - but not always.

Our situation was far from uncommon.

[scarface_74]

13.5% is a small number?

http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics...

[rurp]

Most people obtain those just fine without a tech salary.

[SirMaster]

You don't need much money to have food and shelter...

[ge96]

That homesteader life

[mathgladiator]

Yeah, but I already mowed that grass. It was nice, and I could retire in the burbs... now, I'm just going to give up on civilization and become a rancher. Maybe, I'll start an egg subscription business for my friends that is 100% cash base. I don't know.

It's going to be great.

[Imustaskforhelp]

Sorry for your loss.

But may I ask, about the comment "I love tech, but tech doesn't love me"

Where does this really arise from?

I have some theories and feel free to tell me which one is the right one:- 1)Does this arise from the fact that tech is excessively used to create AI coder assistants to take the coders out in the first place

2)Does this arise from the fact that you feel as if you are a working machine in a cog, like most of what coders do in tech is unethical or useless in terms of human resourcefulness (asking because I saw one hackernews post about it some day where the guy was a microsoft engineer working on some project that he believed to have no impact other than surveillance)

Because these were the two theories as to why you might feel like that way. And I am genuinely interested in what you believe.

Curious for your response!

[tmpz22]

Not OP but the business of western tech places absolute minimum value on individuals and relationship building. It's all short term gain at the expense of all else. I'd expect the average tech employee to live shorter less fulfilled lives despite their wealth.

[1]: What makes a good life lessons from the longest study on happiness (Harvard) - https://www.ted.com/talks/robert_waldinger_what_makes_a_good...

[2]: The secret to living longer may be your social life - https://www.ted.com/talks/susan_pinker_the_secret_to_living_...

[vel0city]

> the business of western tech places absolute minimum value on individuals and relationship building

It's not just the businesses; it's the workers as well. How many comments have you seen here of tech workers making a point that people in the office are not and will never be considered friends, and they're 100% not interested in having any kind of relationship with coworkers?

[organsnyder]

That may be true in many (even most) places, but it's not universal. I've found the most success when I'm able to build relationships, even at large well-known tech companies.

That being said, I strongly believe that it's never wise to find fulfillment solely—or even primarily—in vocation. Absolutely try to build a career that is life-giving, but there is so much joy and meaning to be found outside of work. We thrive in community.

[gorbachev]

You may build relationships with people you work closely with. I've certainly done that at multiple workplaces.

However, that doesn't mean anything when someone whom you've never even spoken to decides shareholders need 0.5% more profit and you gotta go.

[mathgladiator]

The simple version is that I'm a perfectionist that cares about deep understanding, and I had a good career that fit me well with distributed systems. However, at core, I'm curious and passionate in a way that requires management to smooth me over.

So, I didn't want to be in big tech anymore since the game to play kind of sucks. No matter what "they" tell you, at a certain point, every company drains real creativity for one reason or another.

I love coding, and I can even play the strategy game at the higher level (I 'retired' as a 'senior principal'). So, I could have a very cushy life in big tech, but my heart is to build and tinker.

Low and behold, I decided to wander and build a thing that I cared about. I built https://www.adama-platform.com/ , but I could never really get traction without in person friends. Honestly, I wanted to wander and build, but I found myself in a field alone with a lot of ideas.

The sheer effort to promote new ideas is... exhausting. It's just a stream of failure after failure after failure, and then my home was destroyed. I literally ran out of a burning building, and my priorities changed.

Now, I could probably recover my ideas since I was preparing a new marketing push and try to meet developers where the are ( https://adamawww2.adama.games/ ). The idea was to let my ideas power the stranger topological scenarios (like cron jobs). And, given my background, I could probably have credible success raising funds around "real time infrastructure" / "pub sub" / "gateway". The problem there is then I recreate the problem I was escaping, so why bother with that.

So, now I'm going to just build a barndo with a full gym and get super duper fit. I honestly think doing pull ups will make me feel 10x better than accomplishing anything in tech.

[nashashmi]

That’s how the business world of tech is. It’s not that tech didn’t love you. You were looking for a creator centric universe.

And that is how most professions are as well. You go to school for four years learning to do this one small little thing. You practice that for ten years in a professional scope. And you trade one practice for another, say management. And then you change.

I would think in parallel to your creativity, you could find another system for monetization in education. You could also find a third system in theoretical studies.

[mathgladiator]

also, to prove my feelings. I tell HN that I'm quiting tech and I get a bunch of points. I post about my shit, and I mostly got nothing. (and yes, HN wasn't the primary place I tried to market, but still... it sucks hard)

I did a 270 lb benchpress, and I felt better doing that then coding... So, I'm going from tech bro to gym bro. It's going to be wonderful.

[nashashmi]

Creators of tech vs users of tech are very different mindsets. My guess is the creators culture is not something you can just learn and work with. There is an inherent egotistical nature in the creator. And sometimes that is a difficult situation to work with .

[yesimahuman]

I sold my startup and got out of tech and I’m much happier. Didn’t fully understand how miserable the whole industry and the long hours sitting at the computer were making me. Good luck with the new life!

[selimthegrim]

What are you doing now?

[yesimahuman]

Cliché but woodworking and working on my house! Been learning tons of new things that have nothing to do with coding. I’d probably get into rehabbing/flipping houses before I’d ever go back into tech

[gardenhedge]

What was the startup?

[simantel]

It's in their profile.

[gardenhedge]

Oh, cool I've used ionic framework

[par]

would love to follow your progress if you're going to be publicly blogging it (would be ironic, i know.) Also, really sorry for your loss. Was it the palisades fire?

[mathgladiator]

I thought about doing a youtube channel, honestly. Both as a parody and a progress.

It's strange. I will probably get more love for making a video about my future barndo than my tech projects.

It was an electrical fire due to a 20 year old wire and an external flood light that has never worked.

[avandekleut]

Good luck! Your username suits you.

[mathgladiator]

Thanks.

I love math, and I regret not being able to usefully use it more. I don't regret leaving academia, but life is a mystery.

The next chapter feels... good and right.

[freedomben]

In 3 to 5 years once AI is doing most of our tech jobs, we may look back on this comment as someone with laser vision

[mathgladiator]

Maybe. I was using AI via API, and I was building a tool chain to build a social network with PHP... I realized that I could focus on the product, but then I realized I was solving a problem which is social in nature rather than technical.

I am going to get in absolute peak shape, get a few cattle, raise some chickens to produce eggs, and maybe study to become a personal trainer.