[JimTheMan]

These articles about work conditions in tech feel profoundly out of touch with the rest of the world. It's like reading a gazette from Mary Antoinette talking about how tough her life was (pre-revolution..)

The rest of the world outside of tech, looks at tech and sees a bunch of very overpaid developers with quite cushy perks...

Like sure, it would be great to unionise... But if tech workers don't acknowledge their privelege, they shouldn't be shocked when no-one else turnsout to support them.

[Capricorn2481]

> But if tech workers don't acknowledge their privelege, they shouldn't be shocked when no-one else turnsout to support them

It's hard not to read your comment as anything but virtue signaling, and doing so in a way that makes everyone worse off.

You seem to think being a part of a union means you think you have a bad job and everyone should pay special attention to you. Forming a union does not mean you are asking for anything, it means you are giving yourself protection to ask for things in the future without being fired. That's perfectly sensible.

Most tech workers I know are well aware they have desirable positions and do not see it as a bad job. Is there something specific you want people to do to acknowledge their privilege? I would guess not, short of "don't ever complain about your job, ever," which is not realistic in any profession

And as a side note, "tech" means a lot of things. There are lots of people in tech making a teachers salary with no benefits. Doesn't mean it's the worst job ever, but it's probably not most people's image of what "tech" is.

[tmoertel]

> Forming a union does not mean you are asking for anything, it means you are giving yourself protection to ask for things in the future without being fired.

The way I've always done it is that if I want something my employer won't give me, I find someone else who will and go work for them (or start my own company). What's wrong with that model?

[maleldil]

You might find yourself in a job market where that isn't possible.

[tmoertel]

Okay. If I'm in a job market where what I want isn't possible, what does that reality suggest about my demands, the market, and the people who ultimately set the prices in that market (i.e., the public)?

[Capricorn2481]

You're either for unions or not, in any job. So we could say the same thing about teachers.

But in reality, the job market is not necessarily a reflection of the market or demands. It can be a delayed reaction to false narratives. It can be meddling from people capitalizing on these narratives. Unions are good tools against this because they can negotiate with their actual value, not the "market"

[tmoertel]

But unions don't negotiate with their actual value; they negotiate by holding hostage the entire value chain in which their labor is a link. This results in the extraction of value from the public, who ultimately bear all such rents, and especially from displaced would-be employees, who the unions call “scabs” to justify denying them jobs.

[JimTheMan]

Virtue signalling, not at all.

I work as an regular engineer in construction and I have a very cushy job compared to the boots on the ground working in the mud. I am conveying what I and everyone else thinks about tech working conditions.

Also not against unions, I have to work with unions in my day to day.

Yeah, when people choose to write an article about 'how bad they have it', don't expect sympathy from anyone else if you 'don't have it that bad'. Christ, you all get paid 3 x plus the median salary... Go work a job with better conditions that pays less! Or use your incredible market power to move to a place that does have better conditions (which you all have seem to done anyway!)

Unionise for gods sake, but jeez it would help if some of you had to scrape a little in your past prior.

[Capricorn2481]

> I am conveying what I and everyone else thinks about tech working conditions

What you think about tech is not reality, but a riff on it. It's a cathartic exercise. The salary is generally higher, but not everyone gets paid very well and they have exactly zero protections. I know people who are working horrific conditions for not much pay. And it's not good if a new grad in debt can be replaced so easily even when they do their job well. So yes, people are going to ask for unions.

Not everyone who is a programmer has never shoveled shit. So when you say things like

> but jeez it would help if some of you had to scrape a little in your past prior

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's clear you just have an image in your head of a programmer informed by nothing but stereotypes in your social circle. Programmers are not people with histories to you, but strawmen who were born into the role and don't have a life before or after. This is not in service of advocating for conditions of workers in your life, but just appearing class conscious when it's anything but. That's the virtue signaling.

[acuozzo]

> rest of the world outside of tech, looks at tech and sees a bunch of very overpaid developers

They most certainly do, but it says A LOT more about them that they see developers as overpaid rather than themselves as underpaid.

Propaganda from the owners of capital has worked well by ensuring that anyone relying on an income is more likely to look left, right, and strike down than to ever consider looking up.

[daedrdev]

Most businesses are not very profitable at all. Like 5-10% margin. If you took all their profits and made them wages (ignoring the consequences), thats not a crazy amount of pay increase especially compared to what tech workers make.

[acuozzo]

No one has the responsibility to prop-up marginal businesses by toiling for them or purchasing their goods/services.

Absolutely requiring the American "minimum" standard of living is propaganda set nearly in stone by The New Deal.

I'm a child of the working class. I don't think it does my parents a disservice in stating that their sacrifice(s) and toil were not compulsory. I appreciate them, but my father would not have required extensive surgery to walk again if we had settled for less years prior.

[JimTheMan]

We see ourselves as underpaid, and tech workers as overpaid. (For right or wrong)

But you're completely right, Capital has done amazing job of pulling the wool over our eyes hasn't it.

[parpfish]

in the grand scheme of things, it's true that tech workers have very cushy nice jobs. but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make our jobs better.

tech workers should be at the vanguard and come up with imaginative ways to "disrupt employment" the same way we always talk about disrupting everything else. four day work weeks (or less), full remote, codetermination, equity/profit-sharing, etc.

we should use our privilege to raise the bar and set a precedent for better working conditions that apply upward pressure to make things better for all the less privelged jobs.