[gryzzly]

No use arguing with such a hateful person, but other people can easily see what Gaza was before they launched their genocide against Jews on October 7: https://x.com/imshin https://t.me/ImshinJ

Check how does "concentration camp" look before Hamas started a war at expense of the peaceful population on both sides. There are many "Before October 7" videos on there, all with timestamps and sources from clips that Gazans publish themselves. Luxury villas, luxury cars, cute restaurants and good life all around. Also very sick children were routinly treated in Israeli hospitals for free. The main obstacle for poor Gazans was Hamas and their governing. Hamas also managed to smuggle enough concrete to build a tunnel system bigger than NY subway, instead of pumping these resources into Gazan society.

[cess11]

Genocide denial and denial of state atrocities are illegal in some jurisdictions. Are you sure this is a risk you're willing to take?

At October 7th the Gaza strip was under occupation, with the population on the verge of starvation. That is not peaceful. It was also the deadliest year in a long time for palestinians in the occupied West Bank. An openly genocidal, kahanist-likudnik government had taken power in Israel.

Whatever "luxuries" got into the Gaza strip came through the smuggling network. And either way, armed resistance to occupation is a right. I'd argue it should be under apartheid as well.

[gryzzly]

again, there is documented video footage of good life, better than in most arab countries in the region. the fact you refuse to believe reality goes well with everything that you spew out.

and defense is a real right, unlike terrorism, if you pick violence, the other side will defend itself - so you are just glorifying more death, and are blind to your bloodlust, which is disgusting.

[cess11]

The occupier is the aggressor. ICJ published an advisory opinion last summer. Palestinian armed resistance is legitimate, within the limits of international law.

[gryzzly]

most basic thing the international law requires is for combatants to wear a uniform (a major reason why hamas is to blame for deaths of palestinian civilians), not to mention indiscriminate targeting of civilians, hostage taking, rape and torture, use of religious, medical and educational facilities for war purposes and more or less anything that is called armed resistance represents.

[cess11]

Right, if you believe that, start holding the IDF to that standard.

As a victim of occupation it's not illegal to form militias and use other irregular means of warfare.

Even if Abu Obeida dressed in babies it would not be allowed to kill them to kill him. The IDF murders civilians systematically and does not try to avoid civilian casualties. Much of israeli society and the IDF considers palestinian children to be "terrorists" in the making and hence legitimate targets, but international and humanitarian law does not support this position. But this is likely why doctors and surgeons commonly see sniper wounds in the head and torso on small kids in the Gaza strip, and it's why it's not uncommon to see video from the West Bank where some unarmed teenager is left bleeding out in the street while the ambulance is held up by the IDF some distance away.

It was illegal to take hostages, sure, but I'm under the impression that most that were taken on 7th were soldiers and that's another thing entirely. You also don't have any evidence of rape perpetrated by palestinians, while there is quite a bit of evidence for use of rape and sexual abuse against palestinians by israelis. Last summer riots erupted in Israel because some soldiers that raped one of their hostages to death were arrested over it, and a couple of the perpetrators were paraded on evening television as heroes.

[gryzzly]

your impressions don’t interest anyone, the fact is that rocket attacks and the 7th october as well as most of what you call resistance is targeted at civilians and you are a monster to try to find excuses for that.

[gryzzly]

hey, you, no need to threaten me, south africa doesnt stand a chance and your blood libel will soon bust when this ridiculous allegation will be put to a side. you are a hate mongerer and a liar, i am disgusted by you.

[runarberg]

Calling the oct 7 terrorist attacks a genocide against the Jews it at best hyperbolic and at worst an apologia for an actual genocide. Your second paragraph makes me fear you are doing the latter.

I don’t think you realize just how hateful your post actually is. You are trying to paint a picture of victims of genocide that somehow deserved the horrors done against them, or at best denies the very real horrors another state is inflicting upon them.

This kind of speech has no place on a tech forum.

[gryzzly]

lies and hate inciting against jews do, from your perspective I guess?

let me ask this - are you from the region? Have you been to middle east?

[runarberg]

What does that matter?

After months and years of the Khmer Rouge doing the Cambodian Genocide, and after most international experts and commentators (except Noam Chomsky for some reason) concluded that the Cambodian genocide was in fact a genocide. Non-south-east Asians were still allowed to hold opinion on it. And further more, if somebody (like Noam Chomsky) would be spewing apologia for the Cambodian genocide, more people than just South-east Asians were allowed to call it out as such.

Edit: Attaching the relevant Wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide_denial

[gryzzly]

I just think you don’t know what you are talking about, not that you aren’t entitled to hold an opinion. You are spewing lies and hate, and the reason is your ignorance. None of the Palestinians who seek peace will agree with anything you typed out here. They understand really well that there are two foul players – Hamas and Religious Settlers (and Bibi who plays to their tune) and they seek ways to establish bridges with Israelis (just like Israelis do with Palestinians). But you have no idea about any of that, because you read Wikipedia, and BBC and random click-baiting press.

[runarberg]

I don’t know what I have said constitutes either a lie or hate. I’m not making generalizing statements about racial groups, nor painting a picture about victims of violence which seeks to minimize or justify said violence. What I am doing is interpreting said violence in a less hateful way as you have, and pointing out how you interpretation is harmful.

Now I live around Palestinians, I have spoken with Palestinian refugees, both in Iceland and the USA. I have attended lectures from Palestinians, I follow Palestinians on social media (both the diaspora, from Gaza, West-Bank, and East Jerusalem). And my interaction with them paints a very different picture than you. The Palestinians I have spoken to don care about Hamas, they may even support Hamas, their primary concern is the Israeli occupation, and sometimes the Israeli settler-colonial national psyche (i.e. Zionism). They are way more pissed at the Israeli government, the behavior it has normalized, the support it gets from Israeli citizens, and the complicity from both Western countries, but especially the inactivity of other Arab countries. They may bring up religious settlers, but that would just be one example of a much larger list of the systemic oppression they experience. They may bring up Hamas, but that is getting into the nitty grit of Palestine politics, they are actually more likely to criticize Palestinian Authority than Hamas.

Now my experience in interacting with Palestinians is probably very skewed to the left. I meet people in protests, on social media I follow gay’s rights activists, etc. So no doubt there are more conservative Palestinians who’s primary concern is Hamas and religious settlers, however I don’t think that makes my view ignorant nor hateful, just a little biased. However if I were to reduce the Palestinian opinion to only include the more simplistic and conservative one, that would not only make my option ignorant, but also perhaps a little racist.

[gryzzly]

thanks for the explaining where you come from.

it is indeed sad to hear that so few of the palestinians you have talked to are interested in peace and introspection. hamas is objectively the main reason for gazans’ misery and yet you didn’t meet the brave people who speak against them. anyway, it is also shunned in that community (especially expats who go to pro-palestinian demonstrations) to doubt the narrative of the pro-violence factions.

I can recommend you to seek such voices if you really want to know more and to actually contribute anything rational towards peaceful life in the region.

[Protostome]

Yep ... I gave up too. No use in debating someone on the actual facts.