[ryandrake]

Ugh. This is probably one of those "Thanks, I hate it!" moments. You're probably 100% right, and this is why I could never be an independent contractor. This kind of self-promotion and lead generation seems so demeaning, slimy, and shameful, and I'd probably die of embarrassment if I ever had to do it. Yet it comes so naturally to some people. It sucks that this kind of skill is required to make it on your own.

[kmoser]

Independent contractor here. Admittedly, it's not for everybody. But once you've built up a base of clients who need your services regularly, you don't need to keep seeking more, at least not at nearly the same rate. Also, word of mouth will keep people coming to you. The reality is that I almost never have to sell myself. But I've been doing this for decades, and YMMV.

Of course, your ability to do this will be somewhat dependent on your stomach for communicating with strangers who come your way.

[ghaff]

Yeah. I have a contractor at the moment who has been in business for a long time and inherited the business from his father. He doesn't market or advertise. But he still needs to communicate and deal with someone who comes his way.

[mancerayder]

Do market downturns affect you greatly? I'm curious how the past 12 months have gone so far. As someone who's considered what you're doing.

[kmoser]

Not really, because the bulk of my work is building websites, and even in a down market, a website is an integral part of my clients' business. My work is not really seasonal, either.

To be honest, the distinction between full time employee vs. contractor is less important (i.e. affects your work less) than other factors like your capacity and willingness to engage with people, industry, tech stack, and willingness to learn new stacks.

[ornornor]

Wry curious to know what is your strategy for sales and marketing. How did you find your first customers and how do you keep getting more (besides existing ones comes back for more)

Would chat privately if you prefer but no contact details in your bio.

[kmoser]

A few times in my career I've responded to job listings and contacted recruiters but these days I do no sales/marketing. The vast majority of jobs I've gotten, even the first few, have been through contacts I made online in the BBS days. I was also lucky that my first few real jobs were long-term freelance contracts (1-2 years each) so I didn't have to look for work very often. The landscape has changed tremendously since then, though, and these days a resume is less important than a good portfolio.

My advice: join a small, local tech oriented community, contribute regularly, and don't discount the value of F2F. Happy to go into more detail here, or contact me at kmoser.com.

[ghaff]

How else would anyone actually know that you were available? And that they should give you money?

And, even if you get referred, you still need to seal the deal.

And even within a larger company, unless someone like your manager more or less does it for you, "advertising" your accomplishments is pretty essential if you want anyone to reward your accomplishments.

[ranger_danger]

it's not about forcing yourself to be a good salesman, but rather about showcasing your skills, expertise, and personality in a genuine and authentic way

[HeyLaughingBoy]

That's exactly what a good salesperson is doing.

[paxys]

Everyone in the world, including a million experienced programmers, are already showcasing their skills in a "genuine and authentic" way. Why are you better than anyone else for the job?

[ranger_danger]

I don't think they are, and I don't think it's necessary (or possible) to be better than anyone else.

[ghaff]

I assume there is some miscommunication happening in this thread but of course some people are more competent than others in a given field/role and if you disagree I'm not sure what to say.

[ranger_danger]

I took "Why are you better than anyone else" to mean better than everyone else. Because the only other way I know to interpret it (as "why are you better than some other person you know nothing about and have no reference to compare to") didn't make sense to me. But maybe that's my own fault.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Seriously? Have you seen the absolute crap that some people produce? You really don't think "it's necessary (or possible) to be better than anyone else"?

Race to the bottom, here we come!

[cinntaile]

It's nice to interpret someone's post in good faith, then he doesn't have to defend something he never said.

[endemic]

'cos you put yourself out there

[aaronbaugher]

Yeah, it's definitely a separate set of skills, and probably not one that typically fits personality-wise with the typical computer guru set. I was self-employed for a couple decades, and while I usually didn't go hungry because it paid well when I was working, the work that walked in the door on its own never got me ahead either.

No one's fault but my own, but I should have realized a lot sooner that real success would require a lot more proactive "sales" effort; and that if I wasn't willing to do that, I needed to go work for someone else a lot sooner than I finally did.

[quectophoton]

The way I would describe it is: "How do you like applying to new jobs and doing interviews? Now imagine that being half your job."

[patrick451]

Contractors have to do the leetcode monkey dance for prospects?

[ornornor]

Depends what kind of “jobs” you apply to.

If you’re selling a specific service then no, kinda like how you pick a doctor.

But if it’s to apply for a regular coding job except you’re not on the payroll but « independent » then yes it’s exactly like a regular job interview. It just pays 2x but the process is just as shitty.

[jraph]

> Yet it comes so naturally to some people.

Maybe, but I think many (most?) people doing it don't like having to do it, and for many people, it's probably not that natural. It's practice, learned and trained skills.

> I'd probably die of embarrassment if I ever had to do it.

If it's because a lack of self-confidence, work on this, being reasonably self-confident makes life so much more enjoyable.

Otherwise, I believe this embarrassment would be ill-placed, and therefore I would suggest, if you haven't done it already, that you think hard on why. And if you've already done that, I'm quite interested in the deep reasons why you think you'd be so embarrassed :-)

> This is probably one of those "Thanks, I hate it!" moments

Yep, can't agree more xD

[doright]

I just see it as a "mask" you put on for a specific audience that has the potential to greatly increase your prospects and then take off everywhere else. At a certain point the prospects (not going broke) override any shame you could feel.

I don't think selling oneself is something that reflects on one's character given what's at stake. The important people who know who you really are will also treat that mask of yours as fake. But they could also play up your appeals in the LinkedIn comments section to ultimately improve your chances of... getting a job. Which is all that really matters at the end of the day.

[decGetAc]

I mean I agree it's a mask but still feels slimy. I can get behind not going broke > overriding any shame.

But I do think that some people are better at lying to themselves that the choices are going broke or make independent contractor work by selling yourself like that.

There's the obvious route which is to just not be an independent contractor and get a 'normal' job where you still have to do some of this nauseating selling yourself but at only a few critical times and way less public.

No shame for those who want to be an independent contractor at the cost of selling yourself like that but just sharing that I can't seem to trick myself into thinking it's a go broke or make it work situation.

I think some value the independent nature of it and say it's worth the embarrassment that gp talks about. Was just sharing how it's not a go broke or make it work because well it's a bit of a luxury (because normal job is always there)

[bruce511]

It's interesting that you're embarrassed by the notion of "selling yourself". Shame from self-promotion is a very cultural thing, and I'm guessing deeply embedded in your upbringing. "Don't boast" is certainly commonly taught to children.

Of course children are explicitly given everything they need. Adults need to get it for themselves.

If you are in business you need to advertise. If you are in the contract business you need to advertise you. If you can't do that, then that's OK, go get a job.

Advertising is not slimy or shameful. It's part of the job. It can be done well or badly. But the world doesn't "owe" you anything, nor will it seek you out. If you want to be independent then you need to work harder than the dependent who has an employer.

[fragmede]

It's totally cringe, and the first couple of times you have to do it it'll be uncomfortable. But growth happens at the edge of your comfort zone and you'd be mistaken that everyone's a born natural at it. Most people have to practice at it in order to get good at one. Few people just born with it. So what, you're not one of them. You weren't born knowing how to program either.

As far as slimy, I mean, yeah, don't break ethical boundaries; don't lie, don't take credit for other people's work; and it'll be fine. The ick feeling comes when we see others do amoral things like that and get ahead, but all you have to do to avoid that slimy feeling is to not lump all self-promotion together, and then just don't do the unethical bits.

[3acctforcom]

Lying about the true cost of software and taking credit for your employees work is the basis for consulting. Some might term these as Profit, and Reputation. But that's sales for you.