[realityfactchex]

What city regions have better energy, are good economically, and have natural beauty (ocean, mountain, plants)?

It is easy to find faults with the SF bay area (politics, costs, and derivative issues), but is somewhere actually better?

EDIT: Thanks for the downvotes. It was an honest question, and I badly wanted to be informed, having given the issue in-depth consideration over the years. I wasn't being snarky.

[throw8404948k]

SF is good economicaly? Super expensive, high taxes with no matching infrastructure, hiring people...

Weather is cold and moisty...

There are thousands better places around the world. I would like to hear a pitch, why start company in SF today.

[realityfactchex]

Yeah, it's good economically in the sense that it's still near top of market, due to having a large-ish existing economy (even if aspects of said economy seem fundamentally whack).

As in: if you want something at decent quality you can pretty much get it pretty easily with a bunch of options (assuming you can afford it).

Caveat - not necessarily the top of everything for all markets is available, but overall stuff is still around -- even as some things are disappearing from the area.

In contrast, other places are just poor, and you "cannot" find as large a variety of lots of goods and services, I imagine. But I could be wrong -- I'll check my assumptions. Thanks.

[throw8404948k]

Are services really easily available in SF? I was shocked when we went to restaurant at evening without a reservation. Server give one hour waiting time for a table! At normal city you just drop into nearest good restaurant, and if they are full (very unlikely) you go to next.

How easy is to get a dentist or masseuse, with a few hour notice?!

> In contrast, other places are just poor, and you "cannot" find as large a variety of lots of goods and services

I think you need reality check on "poor". The place with the widest selection of services and products (for example types of meat in supermarket, or hand made tailored clothes) is Bangkok in Thailand. Places like SF just do not have enough people to provide all those services.

[realityfactchex]

> Are services really easily available in SF?

IDK about in the city itself, but in the surrounding metro area I would say yes.

> At normal city you just drop into nearest good restaurant, and if they are full (very unlikely) you go to next.

Right, I was biased toward considering the surrounding cities in the SF metro. I think popping into next open restaurant with seating applies to the healthy downtowns in the area metro area. But the city itself, I wouldn't know.

> a dentist...with a few hour notice

I don't think that kind of dental scheduling is typically found/done _anywhere_ in the US AFAIK.

> meat in supermarket, or hand made tailored clothes) is Bangkok in Thailand

Good counterexample, thank you.

[paradox460]

It used to be found in sf, and I've still found it in slc

Back in 2012 I had a raspberry seed work it's way down into my gums and not come out. Made an appointment at Townsend dental and saw him 3 hours later.

A few weeks ago I had a filling fall out. Called up a local dentist here and got it fixed 90 minutes later

[thatfrenchguy]

Yeah if you’re in a culture where everyone gets a reservation for a fancy restaurant (just like in Paris), you’ll need a reservation, that’s just how the market works.

> How easy is to get a dentist or masseuse, with a few hour notice?!

I mean, everyone who lives here is already affiliated with a dental office and they’ll take you in same day for a real emergency. You can get a Thai massage in two hours very easily too.

The quality of medical care is also stupidly high compared to almost anywhere outside the US. Sure your insurance will pay $$$ for it but who cares?

[groby_b]

Because you meet tons of talented engineers whenever you go for lunch, and they just need to cross the street and walk in to ask for a job.

Because you're around a ton of people who are interested in the same thing as you are. Caveat: If you're not interested in the things SF engineers are interested in, that means you're surrounded by masses of incredibly boring - to you - folks :)

Because that introduction you need to make things pop is super-easy compared to other places.

Doesn't mean you _have_ to start in SF, but for certain classes of ventures, it's the place that makes it the easiest.

[z3phyr]

Subculture wise, SF is barely represented in computer graphics or high performance optimization circles, like gamedev or demoscene, arguably a class of field that produces top quality software engineers.

[groby_b]

Yes. I'm not implying only SF produces great engineers. I'm saying that for a specific large set of problems, SF is swimming in great engineers for those problems.

For other problems, elsewhere may well be better. Gamedev, I'd say SoCal, NC, TX are all better places.(Though the studios have done a "great" job choking off the indie scene). If you talk high performance non-gfx, I'd go with NYC, HFT is pretty interesting.

But that's the whole point. Pick a place that has people who care about the thing you want to do. Because top engineers are almost always engineers who deeply care about the field they're in.

[throw8404948k]

Any remote job listing gets thousands of applications, with dozens good candidates. I really doubt I could get decent engineer for $80k a year in SF.

> Caveat: If you're not interested ... incredibly boring

Everyone in SF has basically the same correct opinion.

And not just booring, but hostile. People in SF are really not that tolerant. Try to say that Dubai is more diverse, because it has many cultures, religions, people from Africa, India, Philippines... Or someone is not XYZ, but mixed race (whiter than me) and you will understand.

[simoncion]

> I really doubt I could get decent engineer for $80k a year in SF.

If you did, they'd be a non-exempt employee, so you'd need to track and pay out overtime. A quick look puts the minimum non-exempt salary for jobs in California at ~$69,000.

Also, honestly? I expect you'd be hard-pressed to find a decent programmer for $80k/year in ANY major metro area in the US... post 2020, housing prices went NUTS across the country and aren't getting any less nuts.

(One of the big reasons I haven't moved out of San Francisco is that my ~50% less than "market rate" rent is not THAT much more than current rents in most other US cities. (Plus, most other US cities don't even pretend to have any sort of useful public transportation.))

[pj_mukh]

I'd say Lisbon, Portugal is probably the closest (including Weather, which places like Seattle are lacking), especially because you didn't mention pre-existing tech industry which is probably SF's main differential versus everywhere else. It even has a big red bridge?

P.S: I'm sorry Lisboetas..you are already getting swamped by Digi Nomads, but it's true.

[homefree]

I visited lisbon last year and was kind of shocked how similar to SF it was, weather, hills, general feel - that it has its own golden gate bridge really just sealed it.

[bombcar]

Really depends on what you mean by all those. Some would say Sandy Eggo has the beauty, others would contest that Seattle has the economy and mountains.

The people left there are those who like what it has become or are trapped in someway; others have moved.

[wrs]

Seattle has those things, IMO. (You didn’t mention weather!)

[api_or_ipa]

Vancouver, IMO, is a far better developed city than Seattle. Vastly better transit, denser, more walkable neighbourhoods, and just overall very thoughtfully developed.

It’s just an enormous shame it’s become grossly unaffordable— on an income adjusted basis, it’s more expensive than the Bay Area. That, and the weather, although the summers are perfect IMO.

[wrs]

As a Seattle resident I agree with you on all points.

[drewcoo]

Seattle weather keeps strangers away. And drives sunglasses sales.

[qingcharles]

Seattle is awesome and the people are the friendliest I've encountered in the USA. Feels Canadian.

The weather kills me, though. The weather is too British.

[testfrequency]

You’re conveniently leaving out how pretentious and insufferable many Seattleites are…

It has been far and wide the least welcoming, interesting, and lackluster food city I’ve ever lived in.

Also, the coffee scene there is worse than SF, Chicago, LA..rare stop for bands and musicians touring, and unpleasant transit.

The only people I know who are genuinely happy there are people who moved from Florida, and wealthy white families with young children who moved there (from California) “because taxes and better education”.

Don’t even get me started on the lack of diversity and casual racism.

SF is far from perfect, but Seattle isn’t even in the conversation for places I’d ever recommend someone leaving SF to shortlist.

[marssaxman]

Sorry you're not having a good time here; that hasn't been my experience of the city at all. There was a moment back in the late '90s when I could have moved to either Seattle or S.F., and Seattle happened to snag me first; I still enjoy visiting SF from time to time, but I've never had the slightest regret about settling here instead.

For tradition's sake, I feel obligated to give you the classic Seattleite response to such complaints: "whatever, man; if there's somewhere you like better, feel free to go there."

[JohnFen]

> You’re conveniently leaving out how pretentious and insufferable many Seattleites are

SF isn't any better on that count.

[testfrequency]

Caught me mid edit..I agree..to a degree.

Seattle is another tier above. SF people I find far more interesting and smart vs. the smartest people I met/knew/know in Seattle. Seattle is like a pissing contest for nerd snipers. At least in SF we drink our own pee (at Folsom of course)

[qingcharles]

This is literally the opposite of my experiences :(

[sekai]

Munich, Germany. Although, the sea is a bit further away.

[Clamchop]

I've grown rather fond of San Diego.

[oofbaroomf]

The Seattle/Bellevue area.

[GuinansEyebrows]

Ah, Bellevue, for when you want to feel like you live inside of a shopping mall.

[toast0]

How can you watch Logan's Run and not want to live inside a shopping mall??

[GuinansEyebrows]

Go to Bellevue and find out :)

[indoordin0saur]

It really is surrounded by amazing natural beauty. However, everything to do with humans has slowly morphed into an unfixable nightmare and it's heartbreaking. I think it's time to throw in the towel, evacuate everyone from the city and let it return to nature as a wildlife preserve.