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by fergal_reid 461 days ago
As an Irish person when I saw the article title, I was immediately sceptical.

I personally believe most articles about the famine shy away from the horror of it, and also from a frank discussion.

Going to give some subjective opinion here: people generally downplay the role of the British government and ruling class in it.

Why? One personal theory - growing up in the 80s in Ireland there was a lot of violence in the north. (Most) Irish people who were educated or middle class were worried about basically their kids joining the IRA, and so kind of downplayed the historical beef with the British. That's come through in the culture.

There's also kind of a fight over the historical narrative with the British, maybe including the history establishment, who yes care a lot about historical accuracy, but, also, very subjectively, see the world through a different lens, and often come up through British institutions that view the British empire positively.

It's often easier to say the famine was the blight, rather than political. (They do teach the political angle in schools in Ireland; but I think it's fair to say it's contested or downplayed in the popular understanding, especially in Britain.)

However that article is written by a famous Irish journalist and doesn't shy away from going beyond that.

Perhaps a note of caution - even by Irish standards he'd be left leaning, so would be very politically left by American standards; he's maybe prone to emphasize the angle that the root cause was lassiez-faire economic and political policies. (I'm not saying it wasn't.)

I personally would emphasize more the fact that the government did not care much about the Irish people specifically. The Irish were looked down on as a people; and also viewed as troublesome in the empire.

Some government folks did sympathize, of course, and did try to help.

But I personally do not think the famine would have happened in England, no matter how lassiez-faire the economic policies of the government. A major dimension must be a lack of care for the Irish people, over whom they were governing; and there are instances of people in power being glad to see the Irish being brought low:

"Public works projects achieved little, while Sir Charles Trevelyan, who was in charge of the relief effort, limited government aid on the basis of laissez-faire principles and an evangelical belief that “the judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson”." per the UK parliament website!

It's not an easy thing to come to terms with even today. I recently recorded a video talking about how fast the build out of rail infrastructure was, in the UK, as an analogy for how fast the AI infra build out could be; and I got a little quesy realizing that during the Irish potato famine the UK was spending double digit GDP percent on rail build out. Far sighted, yes, and powering the industrial revolution, but wow, doing that while mass exporting food from the starving country next door, yikes.

3 comments

Crop failures are natural disasters. Famine's are political disasters.

The Indian economist Amartya Sen wrote a book in 1999, _Development as Freedom_ which argues, relatively convincingly, that famine's don't happen in functioning democracies among their own citizens. The book makes the observation that famines happened regularly in British colonial India, every few decades, but basically stopped in democratic, self-governing India. (1) And, as far back as the Romans, Egyptians, and Chinese many of the stories told about what good governance looked like involved beating famines- either because they were able to organize shipments of food from unaffected areas or because they stored up enough grain in the good times to survive the crop failures.

It is the general consensus among people who study this sort of thing that, as the United Nations OHCHR wrote in 2023, "Hunger and famine did not arise because there was not enough food to go around; they were caused by political failures, meaning that hunger and famine could only be addressed through political action." (2) Yes, a particular crop failure can be a natural disaster, but a famine happening requires a political failure on top of that (and the research does seem to indicate causation: the political failure is not caused by the crop failure but was pre-existing, and caused the crop failure to turn into a famine).

So, basically, yeah, the general consensus of people who study famines today and in the past is that the British government made choices that turned a crop failure into a famine. The same with the Great Famine of India, the Bengal Famine, the Soviets and the Holdomor, etc.

1: Generally, my understanding is that people who look at this think that Sen was basically correct. There might be a couple of occasions where a democracy failed to govern and suffered a famine, but, the way that democracies distribute power makes it far more unusual for them to fail so catastrophically that they can't deliver food to an area experiencing crop failure. This is one of the reasons that democracies are better than authoritarian governments!

2: https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/03/conflict-and-violence-...

Also Irish person here. My primary school was 100m from one of the old workhouses, and I was taught from maybe age 7 what happened there. All the old stone walls in the nearby fields were built by forced famine labor. There's abandoned roads to nowhere (famine roads) all around, likewise built by forced labor.

I think it was taught quite well, and people around me while I was growing up didn't downplay it. It's still a significant event in the Irish psyche, especially in the parts of the country most deeply effected at the time.

The things it's, though, it's a fairly distant historical event at this stage, and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to the Irish collective psyche to hold on to it as strongly as we still do - not just the famine but all aspects our being "the oppressed". We're no longer oppressed, we're a privileged and filthy rich country (even if it doesn't feel like that right now, but we have no one to blame for the housing crisis except our own politicians and capitalists).

While we should be mindful of the English tendency to play down and rewrite history, I know many Irish people who are straight up racist towards the English - defended with the tired caveat the "oppressed people can't be racist towards the oppressors". Yes, they can. Maybe it's a less harmful form of racism, but it holds back the psychological development of the person with racist views nonetheless.

In secondary school "Up the Ra" was a common slogan shouted by my classmates. There's still pubs in Dublin and other places around the country where you wouldn't want to go with an English accent.

I'm not saying any of this to defend the English - they did terrible things in history, and those must not be forgotten or rewritten. There's also a fair few English people who are racist towards Irish too, not to mention a lot of "harking back to the glory days of Empire", mostly from older English men whose ancestors were probably peasants back then.

But for us Irish, holding onto this old identity of "the oppressed" is a part of our collective psyche which I struggled with a lot growing up, and it holds back out country. It's time we moved on.

Yes, I know that's hard when a quarter of the geographical landmass of Ireland still belongs to the old oppressors. But that's another thing we need to let go off. The people living in the North voted, several times, to remain in the UK. It's their choice, not ours. If they look like they're leaning to vote differently in the future we can restart the conversation.

> I know many Irish people who are straight up racist towards the English

I'm Irish. I've spent a lot of time in the countryside and the cities. This is not true. It's very rare to find an Irish person who is racist towards the British

> secondary school "Up the Ra" was a common slogan shouted by my classmates.

These days its justa catchy rebel chant. It does not necessarily mean the people chanting it support the IRA

> There's still pubs in Dublin and other places around the country where you wouldn't want to go with an English accent.

No there's not.

I can think of maybe 2 pubs in Dublin you might get an unfrindly welcome. On a bad day.

> But for us Irish, holding onto this old identity of "the oppressed" is a part of our collective psyche

You're really really over stating how prevalent this is

> a quarter of the geographical landmass of Ireland still belongs to the old oppressors. But that's another thing we need to let go off.

We did. Remember the referendum? The one where we collectively voted to remove the territorial claim from our constitution?

Your whole comment is vastly exaggerated.

There's Americans reading. Don't be giving them the wrong ideas, they've enough to be dealing with.

> It's very rare to find an Irish person who is racist towards the British

Oh come off it. No it's not. Unless you're in deep denial about what constitutes racism.

> Your whole comment is vastly exaggerated.

Maybe we have different lived experiences? We can both be Irish and have very different lives and experiences, small country though it is.

For me, nothing I said is exaggerated. Irish people do hate to state things directly though, and I'm used to be told to be quiet whenever I speak out about our issues.

> There's Americans reading. Don't be giving them the wrong ideas, they've enough to be dealing with.

Ok can't argue with that one.

Another Irish person here… Going to have to agree with biorach on this one, but not by a lot.

>> It's very rare to find an Irish person who is racist towards the British >Oh come off it. No it's not. Unless you're in deep denial about what constitutes racism.

The Irish that are racist against the British are, in my experience, the American who have things to say about other groups, ethnicities, religions.

Not uncommon, not prolific, but not the crowd you’d go hang out with either.

"There's Americans reading. Don't be giving them the wrong ideas, they've enough to be dealing with."

Thanks for making me laugh for a bit before I went back to staring at my screen in disbelief.

Sure, it's unhelpful to dwell too much on the past, but I don't think the Ireland of today is as consumed by victimhood or anti-Britishness as you are making out. I don't doubt there are pockets of society where anti-British sentiment is still strong but there is no society in the world without similar pockets of backwards, racist thinking. By and large, Irish people do not dislike or begrudge British people. While Brexit stoked some of the old tensions (again, we were far from the only country getting frustrated with Britain during those negotiations) we have, both before and since, largely regarded the British as our friends and allies.

The famine was a huge event in our history. Our population still hasn't recovered from it and the mass emigration it triggered still has an impact on our relations with other countries, particularly the US. We shouldn't be (and aren't) consumed by it but it would be madness to forget it. The same goes for our broader struggle for independence, which is literally the origin story of our country.

> Yes, I know that's hard when a quarter of the geographical landmass of Ireland still belongs to the old oppressors. But that's another thing we need to let go off. The people living in the North voted, several times, to remain in the UK. It's their choice, not ours. If they look like they're leaning to vote differently in the future we can restart the conversation.

The Irish position on the North is clear and has been since 1998. We don't lay claim to it so there is nothing to "let go". No one questions the right of the North to choose its own way, but equally we have a relationship and a history with that part of the island that we cannot just ignore.

It’s important to teach about bad times during the good times, because the horrors of what humans are capable of seem unfathomable with time and distance.
I'm American of Irish descent and have spent a lot of time in Ireland. The walls mentioned were sort of an academic trick. They had to do "work" to get "paid" and so they were made to just build walls so that they could then be paid in food and not starve.

If you hike around and see them, it's stunning. They were handmade. The rocks weren't insitu, they were carried in. It's not the pyramids, but in a relatively contemporary time they were made rather than just providing assistance.

"Up the RA" is a great slogan. The IRA made an important and undeniable contribution to Irish statehood. I don't think we'd be "a privileged and filthy rich country" were it not for their activities in the 20th century. There is an unfortunate tendency among some people to be unwilling to recognise that for fear of offending our neighbours to the east. As you say, it's in the distant past and not worth getting too offended about.
They also did that to Bengal in the famine there much later. It's a pattern with the Brits.