[pavlov]

Germans revered a business leader who turned out to be a Russian asset. But at least they accepted the evidence when it was presented.

Americans elected a president who behaves exactly like a Russian asset. And no evidence could make them change their mind about it.

Who are the gullible people again?

[dwattttt]

Both of them. The two groups you named.

[bloomingeek]

I agree and I'm from the states. History will be unkind to trump and the GOP, who are playing with people's lives and fire.

[jdhendrickson]

It depends on who writes the history books in the states, and it's not looking good.

[lostlogin]

It also depends on whether book written is deemed illegal.

[kevinventullo]

Winners create the 5-second infotainment TikTok historical summary.

[collingreen]

We've always been at war with Eurasia.

[bryanrasmussen]

history is full of books that were deemed illegal that won in the end.

[lazide]

And you’ll never know about the 100x other ones that ‘lost’.

[bryanrasmussen]

do you know about the 100x other ones that "lost"? I ask because you seem pretty certain they exist.

[crossroadsguy]

Go and ask the general populace of UK (you know what, focus on the school and college goers) and ask what their country and their His/Her Royal Fartnesses have done to a large part of this globe and revel in the genuine blanks they draw!

History writing my arse!

[lazyeye]

The majority of US voters disagree with you. I think the latest poll showed 70% of people like what Doge is doing for example.

[steve_adams_86]

That’s very misleading to state. If you look at all polls about DOGE and related topics, you will find DOGE approval is relatively low while the ostensible DOGE mandates have the approval closer to 70% that you’re talking about.

Yet these are not the same things. DOGE has done many things already which upset and discourage people. Come to Canada where the sentiment towards DOGE seems very negative, you will still see a great desire for improved government efficiency.

DOGE is not as well-loved as a poll about government efficiency will make it seem. Almost everyone wants improved efficiency. Many people think their public service needs cuts. Not everyone thinks the way DOGE does it makes sense.

[lazyeye]

Yes not everyone absolutely agrees on anything. And thats why we have elections and the winner of that election gets to decide.

[steve_adams_86]

Usually it seems like there’s a bit more democracy involved in the USA, but it’s getting hard to tell from here in Canada.

[dkjaudyeqooe]

And then we get to criticize the living fuck out of whoever won, especially if they're incompetent.

[lazyeye]

And even if they're competent too but just on the other side...

[t0mas88]

Sure, but that's because they don't understand the bigger picture.

The UK with Brexit is a good example. The majority of the voters believed it was a good idea, due to campaigns not really based on facts. Now they're all angry because the results suck for them and the campaigns were mostly lies.

The same is going to happen with the US majority backing Trump's plans. They all believe a lot of lies he keeps telling. And in a few years they're going to be angry because they then face the consequences like high prices for everyday purchases and terrible healthcare for the working class.

It's just that today they don't understand yet what the results of Trump's policies are going to be. And shouting "Canada/Europe/China has been very bad for us" gets them excited, simple human nature, our group vs the other.

[lazyeye]

Or alternatively (and we can't rule this out), maybe it's the commenters on HN that "don't understand the bigger picture...".

[bloomingeek]

The point being, we won't know until years from now the damage that's being done to both the states and the world stage.

[lazyeye]

Yes there's a level of trust with any new administration. When people voted for Biden they didn't realise they'd be getting a president in the early stages of dementia, leaving the actual decision-making to the extremists in the Democrat party. And of course, all the extraordinary damage that came with that...lawfare and the politicisation of the justice system, the censorship industrial complex, violent Venezualan gangs establishing a foothold in the US, massive amounts of fentanyl coming across the open border, billions of dollars of hard-earned taxpayer money spent on non-Americans in the country illegally etc.

[bloomingeek]

"Sure, but that's because they don't understand the bigger picture."

And there it is! The info given by the current administration is as bewildering as it is incomplete. Russia, governmental agencies, Medicaid(!), medical researchers (who are shaking in their boots about their futures)...it's a long list with very little reasonable excuses. Musk? I'll stop here.

The point being, we won't know until years from now the damage that's being done to both the states and the world stage.

[lazyeye]

Just because you're bewildered doesn't mean other people are. I think most people understand the scale of the problem and the need for massive action to address it. And they also understand that mistakes will be made but they will be quickly resolved.

And I think most people are relieved that for the first time in a hundred years (ever?) somebody is actually doing something to address govt fraud, waste and abuse. Something more than lots of talk followed by no action which is what has always happened previously.

[archagon]

Meanwhile, Republicans are pushing for a $4T debt ceiling increase and $4.5T in tax cuts. The impoverished and ailing will suffer from missed social security checks, medical debt, and loss of EBT while the rich will be eating caviar on those “savings.”

If you’re looking for fraud, waste, and abuse, it’s right there.

[bitsage]

It will probably be kinder to him than to the neoliberals who thought that giving trillions to an authoritarian regime would somehow make them a liberal democracy.

[bloomingeek]

Do tell! Give sources.

[orochimaaru]

There was no evidence of him being a Russian asset. The Steele dossier and the corresponding DNC opposition research have been discredited. Remember there were 4 years of Democratic Party government. They could never find enough to indict him on treason.

The best option to actually convict him was in Atlanta for racketeering to win an election. There the democratic attorney general blew it by hiring the prosecutor she was sleeping with.

[astrange]

> They could never find enough to indict him on treason.

Treason is strictly defined in the constitution and doesn't apply here because we aren't at war with Russia.

He probably did engage in seditious conspiracy or such things with them, via Roger Stone and Wikileaks, but they successfully obstructed justice enough to get away with it.

[archagon]

Discredited how? I recall a whole bunch of people in his administration getting arrested. (Though not the president himself.)

[lazyeye]

Their best option...?

Wouldn't their best option be to put up a candidate and policies that voters actually liked?

[orochimaaru]

They as in the republicans did. Trump won the popular vote. The democrats are a complete shit show. They still are and seem completely blind to the reasons they lost.

[lazyeye]

Exactly.

[drdaeman]

If the discussion is about A, and, let's suppose, some P(A) is true, if P(B) is also true, but discussion never mentions B - what's the point of solely bringing the fact of truthfulness of P(B) into the picture?

[pavlov]

Because P(A) is suggested as being unique to A?

[drdaeman]

Fair point. However, I didn’t get that impression at all - in my reading the preceding conversation didn’t seem to suggest anything about uniqueness or make any comparisons. Would you mind quoting the piece that made you think it’s suggested so, please?

[ineedasername]

Jepeordy theme song...

"What is 'inclusive or' Alex?"

Alex: "Yes! And that will.close out the 'boolean operators & avoidable horrors' category for this game."

[WrongAssumption]

Sorry, how does a different group being gullible present as evidence as another group not being gullible?

[bryanrasmussen]

I'm thinking the assumption here was the accusation of gullibility being made against the first group was being made by a member of the second group, and the argument was that the second group presented greater gullibility traits.

However it should probably be noted that it was official government organizations of the first group that were being gullible whereas the official government organizations of the second group all seem to know exactly what's up, but either seem unable to do anything or are actively participating.

[astrange]

Americans didn't elect him because they believed anything he said. They were basically paying as little attention as they possibly could and have no idea what he has ever said about anything - if you go and read interviews with swing voters they just have entirely imaginary ideas of what he's like.

The only thing they remember is he was president in 2019. They don't reliably know who it was in 2020/2021 though.

(I think the fixed-term strong presidential system is essentially unfixable here. The country needs snap elections.)

[__turbobrew__]

Yes

[wisty]

Asset is a weasel word.

You think Trump takes orders from Putin? He's too much an egotist, and he sent the Javalins to Ukreain when lots of the establishment thought it was a bad idea since the experts thought Putin wasn't mad enough to invade again. (Even if he took Kyiv in the time the US took Baghdad, the counterinsurgency to follow would / will break them).

Yeah, IMO Putin does think Trump is incompetent, easily manipulated, corrupt, and easily influenced by actual assets. Elon is similar, but rather than incompetent, he has aligned interests (Russia is a gas station, and Elon sells EVs, both want the price of gas to skyrocket and I suspect both think US global power basically exists to keep gas prices low).

I'm in shock that more people don't realise that Elon / Trump foreign policy is easily explained by Elon wanting higher gas prices, and Trump being easily manipulated.

There's no solid evidence Trump is secretly and knowingly working for Putin, that's just a cooker left-wing conspiracy theory IMO.

[sheepscreek]

This argument doesn’t hold much water. The tariff actions will only compel oil producers to explore new markets. With the US out of the picture, there will be a significant increase in supply. A big portion of this will be due to Canadian oil finding buyers in non-US markets.

[wisty]

Tariffs might hurt Elon but ceding US influence to OPEC (including Russia) by threatening to leave NATO and the UN? What happpens with instability and a lack of US influence in the Middle East?

[jldugger]

> There's no solid evidence Trump is secretly and knowingly working for Putin

Not enough to indict, anyways, but there's a spectrum between insane left-wing conspiracy and a jury conviction. Paul Manafort, Trumps 2016 campaign chairman, was sentenced to 7 years prison after pleading guilty to conspiracy against the United States. His protege Rick Gates did 45 days in a plea bargain deal.

Then there was the time Trump stood up at his campaign podium and directly asked Russian hackers to leak more Clinton emails:

> “Russia, if you’re listening,” Trump said, “I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.”

And during his presidency, he went out of his way to take secret meetings with Putin in Hamburg Germany[1], among other places. We have no idea what was discussed, which seemingly checks the "secret" box at least. As for "knowing," well, he directly asked for their help, but who knows how mentally "there" he is. Comes down to "for" I guess, as I'm sure he'd characterize it as "with"?

[1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump...

[wqaatwt]

> explained by Elon wanting higher gas prices, and Trump being easily manipulated

Artificially triggering an economic recession is a sure way lower oil prices. So how exactly are they planning to do this?

Besides that.. if this is really musk’s goal he’s going in very roundabout way.

> There's no solid evidence Trump is secretly and knowingly working for Putin

True. He is obviously working for him very publicly and whether he’s conscious of that or not does not even change much