[systemf_omega]

This has been done before, and America comes out consistently on top. Even the median purchasing power parity (PPP) in the US is frequently ranked highest in the world. The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans.

This gets amplified if you're a highly sought after professional. Top senior engineers are getting paid $500k-$1M in the US. These are figures you'll never find in Europe or Asia, not even close. Put on top the rising costs of living, and 45% top tax brackets (France, UK, Germany, Spain), the US is incomparable.

[lxgr]

Yes, if you're a professional in high demand, you can live a great life in the US. But how does the quality of life of everybody below the median look like?

> This gets amplified if you're a highly sought after professional. Top senior engineers are getting paid $500k-$1M in the US. These are figures you'll never find in Europe or Asia, not even close.

But what does that buy you really, in a high cost of living area? What if you ever want to do something else? What if demands for your profession change? How expensive is it to raise children?

I have first hand experience of both the US and Europe, and while nominal salaries are (much) lower in the latter, subjective feelings of safety and quality of life seem much more comparable than the numbers might make you believe.

That said, the US system of highly rewarding relatively few people at the top certainly motivates the masses like few others: Most people are bad at statistics and like playing the lottery.

[systemf_omega]

> But how does the quality of life of everybody below the median look like?

This discussion is about whether or not the US is a top brain drain destination. That means we're talking about exceptionally skilled or promising scientists/engineers/doctors at the top of their field. I'm not claiming life is great for everyone in America. I agree it isn't.

> But what does that buy you really, in a high cost of living area?

Look at the PPP in CA. It buys you a lot. People in HCOL cities that manage their finances well can become multi-millionaires in their early 30s. They will already be able to retire in 99% of the world, with enough savings to lead incredibly comfortable and luxurious lives. Meanwhile, people in Europe have on average lower assets and savings, low levels of home ownership, and lower likelihood to retire early at a comparable standard of living. Not to mention the pension crisis many of them are or will be facing in the near future.

[lxgr]

> This discussion is about whether or not the US is a top brain drain destination.

And my point is that this is increasingly the case due to a combination of inertia and people’s bad EV calculations:

> They will already be able to retire in 99% of the world, with enough savings to lead incredibly comfortable and luxurious lives.

Just demographically, this will never be viable for a large fraction of the population, regardless of any economic concerns.

This leaves truly exceptional talents, and those that incorrectly assume that that’s them.

And this isn’t even considering how AI is potentially going to shake up knowledge work.

[tokioyoyo]

Have you lived in Denmark, Japan, China, Netherlands and some other countries in the past 10-15 years? I really don’t think you weigh in people’s personal preferences and general quality of life into your equations.

There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US. Yes there is some, but the times when it was objectively much better to live and grow in the states is in the past. Money is really not the only thing people care about, but it’s hard to understand for people for whom money is the only thing they care about.

[Ray20]

>There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US.

Yeas, and this reason - US visa is one of the hardest to get.

[tokai]

Denmark is much much harder than the US.

[FirmwareBurner]

How so?

[coolThingsFirst]

It's not just money. There's another aspect which the US has that edges out the competition. The fact that everyone is treated as an American in the place without racism/xenophobia. This is a huge benefit over impenetrable countries like Denmark/Netherlands.

[tokioyoyo]

Half of your country actively rallies on the idea of sending back Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and etc. I think you just live in a bubble or educated circles where that’s bot tolerated, but that’s not the experience of every single immigrant.

[bitsage]

Immigrants from the Global South definitely have it worse in his examples, the Denmark and Netherlands, where even liberal parties have turned against immigration. The Republicans want to deport illegal immigrants, starting with those who have criminal records, they haven’t pursued anything as perverse as Denmark’s “Ghetto Law”. PVV’s platform in the Netherlands is self-explanatory.

[throwawayq3423]

Immigration remains overwhelmingly popular in the US, much higher than other places in Europe and Asia.

https://eig.org/hsi-voter-survey/

[coolThingsFirst]

I'm saying this as an immigrant, muslim name but white.

You've no idea of the blatant ongoing racism in Europe that's so normalised it's basically a non issue. Like Zwarte Piet in Netherlands.

The xenophobia in EU is head and shoulders above the US. I've lived in both places for years. In Germany for example you will never be considered German even if you were born in the country.

[systemf_omega]

Money buys you freedom to live you life anywhere you want, and do whatever you want. Do you think grinding away for low pay until your mid 60s, only to end up facing a collapsing pension system in your final years with little savings is the best way to spend your time on earth?

Also how can a person that hasn't experienced the economic freedom the US provides to top talent accurately judge if their country of choice is better? I would like to see the statistics on SWEs that got wealthy in America, that regret moving to the states and would prefer to revert all those years.

(I've lived in Europe for most of my life by the way. Lots of good places to retire, but mostly poor choices for spending my productive years there.)

[tokioyoyo]

My friend, not everyone makes 150K/year. Like yes, we can do it, and choose our freedom because of the industry we live in. But you might be very disconnected from an average person’s life. Average or poorer person in the US does not get to choose where they retire either. I promise, 70 year retired old ojiisans over here in Tokyo don’t think their life would’ve been better if they lived in Oklahoma.

You guys think everyone wants the same as you do, but it really isn’t like that.

[systemf_omega]

> Average or poorer person in the US does not get to choose where they retire either.

I've already addressed this in another thread. We're talking about brain drain. That means we are talking about highly skilled professionals for in-demand fields that can easily get this level of pay.

A skilled senior SWE can very realistically demand $300k+ comp in US tech companies. In the startup space $150k + equity has become table stakes, and their hiring bar is often significantly lower. These are not anomalies, tech companies employ hundreds of thousands of engineers.

> You guys think everyone wants the same as you do, but it really isn’t like that.

Ok, so tell me, what are things people want? Because people in the aforementioned circles can retire in their 30s, and spend the rest of their lives traveling the world, taking care of their family, and pursing their passions without worries. Is that somehow controversial?

[lxgr]

For an entire career and beyond (to support themselves after retirement)? For their spouse and children too?

If you're single and flexible to move away if any part of that calculation changes it's definitely a great deal, but the more attachments you have in life, the worse the deal becomes arguably.

> Because people in the aforementioned circles can retire in their 30s, and spend the rest of their lives traveling the world, taking care of their family, and pursing their passions without worries. Is that somehow controversial?

I think you have an unrealistically rosy view of the average outcome here. I work in this field, and people "retiring in their 30s and traveling the world while providing for their family and pursuing their passions" is still an extreme outlier.

> Ok, so tell me, what are things people want?

Maybe I'm an outlier here too, but personally, I value long-term societal stability and safety quite highly, as I don't have many illusions about being able to buy my way out of certain kinds of problems caused by a large and increasing rift between people of various income levels.

[throwaway2037]

    > The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans.

I'm so tired of this trope on HN. It comes up over and over again, but never considers non-economic quality of life issues. Take for example public schools: They are awful in poor US states, and good-to-excellent in most highly developed European nations.

[tokioyoyo]

I swear, none of these people have been to Louisiana, West Virginia, or any of the empty-looking cities that used to be lively 50 years ago. And I’m saying this as a person who isn’t American, but wanted to check it out myself before I made assumptions about the world.

[throwawayq3423]

Also GPD per capita is a terrible measure of standard of life considering 40k in Louisiana when you need to pay for most of health care education etc. isn't that much.

The average life in these countries is undeniably better, even if poorer on paper.

[selimthegrim]

Living in New Orleans right now I concur.