[worldsayshi]

So we're back to promoting slavery then? Because that is a thing that happens if we just allow the strong to do whatever they want. It seems to me that this kind of cynical "realistic" pessimism is part of what fuels totalitarianism. Russia has succeeded in falling back into this because their citizens believes that might makes right.

But might isn't one thing. Might arises from complex underlying relationships between people and it arises from what people believe in. Might makes right yes. But what people believe is right also makes might. When people stop believing that it's impossible to stand up to totalitarianism - that's when it wins.

[ahartmetz]

One can recognize (correctly or not) something being true without wanting it to be true.

I find this particular "You shall believe that things are how we think they ought to be" conformism quite baffling - it's obviously wrong.

[worldsayshi]

I mean reality have aspects of both. We have the capacity to make things how they ought to be, to an extent - especially if we agree on what ought to be. This discussion boils down to how far we think that extent goes.

I think we tend to both under and over estimate how far that goes. We underperform when we lack the means to coordinate. When we align and stay motivated we can push ought to to is pretty damn far.