[ahartmetz]

One can recognize (correctly or not) something being true without wanting it to be true.

I find this particular "You shall believe that things are how we think they ought to be" conformism quite baffling - it's obviously wrong.

[worldsayshi]

I mean reality have aspects of both. We have the capacity to make things how they ought to be, to an extent - especially if we agree on what ought to be. This discussion boils down to how far we think that extent goes.

I think we tend to both under and over estimate how far that goes. We underperform when we lack the means to coordinate. When we align and stay motivated we can push ought to to is pretty damn far.