[danielvaughn]

Personal opinion, but I really don’t get low-profile keyboards. I always need a foam cushion for my palms, which means that a normal profile always feels best for me. Low feels too low with a cushion, and yet still feels too high without one.

[crazygringo]

I know what you mean, but there's also a big difference between key height and keyboard height.

There's also a common misconception that it's ergonomic to angle a keyboard "upward" (elevating the back of the keyboard), when correct ergonomics is actually to angle the keyboard downwards (elevate the front).

See if you have a long object a little shorter than your foam cushion that you can scotch tape to the bottom of the front of a low-profile Apple keyboard, so that you still use the foam cushion but the front of the keyboard is at the same level as the cushion, and then angles downwards.

And then you get the advantages of the short key travel, which just means your fingers move less and so there's less force/strain.

You may find it shockingly comfortable!

[luqtas]

keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on your wrist support, arm position/chair height... what's optimal and generic to suggest because how our upper extremity muscles are, (at least for mouse but i think it can work for keyboards too) [0] is having it sides angled from 20° up to 30°, subjective exprience also plays a role

you can easily find MX switches that have equal or +- 0.5mm travel lenght as low-profiles ones... which considering how thin PCB (and even handwired) flat keyboards are, i can't see the point unless you are supporting your arms in the same table your keyboard is! i rather have my arms floating so i can use shoulder and elbow movement for distant keys other than wrist movements but who cares :P

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...

[crazygringo]

> keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on...

It doesn't. But to clarify: it should always be downwards relative to your forearm. And your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too).

A keyboard that is angled upwards puts constant strain on the top of your wrist. There are no circumstances where this is a good thing (assuming you don't have injury/disability that requires other accommodations).

Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways. It has no relevance to angling keyboards up/down. (But yes, "vertical" mice, that are angled in reality, are much better too.)

[jwr]

Correct. So many people get this wrong, and there are so many misconceptions around, that there is actual market pressure to deliver upwards-tilting keyboards and wrist pads.

If you want to get your keyboard and desk ergonomics correct, look at pianists. They have it nailed down. Elbows at right angle, no wrist supports, sitting straight. And guess what, the piano keyboards are not upwards-tilting! Unfortunately, most of our desks are too high relative to the chairs we sit in.

[luqtas]

various resources from universities recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°, which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all... [0]

> Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways

the author points out another research, i should have linked it instead of that one [1]... but it's about the ideal slanted angle considering how our muscles are structured; the author even cites that suggestions as something not taking relative preferences, which is totally fair as some people may use their computers for a short time in very awkward positions and that's fine

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10506...

[1] yet about mouse but please take your time to read what's was typed in the paper regarding the slant angle suggestion -- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02680...

[crazygringo]

> recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°

That's what I said ("your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too)"). Never upward.

> which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all.

If you want a 10° downwards angle on the keyboard relative to your forearm and your forearm is 5° upwards, then your keyboard still needs 5° downward relative to your desk. If your desk is so high that your forearms are angled up 20° from the horizontal, then something is extremely wrong with your chair/desk height.

And your first link supports exactly what I wrote:

> The natural position of your hands with respect to the relative vertical position at the wrist is along the plane or below it (i.e. you want the tips of your fingers to be at the same height as your wrist or preferably slightly lower). When your hand rises above this plane (making the hand signal for 'STOP'), this is called dorsiflexion or wrist extension. This greatly reduces blood flow through the wrist and can quickly cause pain, fatigue and numbness. Most keyboards have a 'foot' located at the back of the keyboard which is not desirable as it creates a positively inclined keyboarding surface. Many articulating arms offer the option of a negative inclination, which will make the entire work surface slope away from you, ensuring that your hands are not 'bent' upward at the wrist.

And I don't know why you've added another link about sideways mouse slant. That has nothing to do with up-down keyboard/arm angle. If there's some relevant sentence in it, please quote it, because I can find nothing relevant in the publicly available text.

You ask me to "please take your time to read" -- I suggest you take the time to re-read your own first link. It makes clear there is no situation where a keyboard angled upwards (the back of the keyboard elevated) is good ergonomics -- exactly what I said.

[luqtas]

you are right, i always considered the front of the keyboard what you considered the back, sorry for this (and by the way, i changed the link to a more generic one citing the variation of 90° -> 120° i typed of one easily finding by surfing the internet)

on the 2° paper, > Among the five tested mice, the 25° or 30° slanted mice caused lower muscle activity and more neutral working postures for ECU, Trap and PT muscles.

these muscles are also used during keyboard usage. slant angle is always suggested on ergonomic research, as our arms muscles are tensioned/twisted when using a flat keyboard/mouse... you can easily find research pointing slant angle on ergonomic keyboards but the research i pointed out is interesting as the author actually studied which is the optimal angle based on our anatomy (there's tension/forces on greater slant angles to maintain the posture, as there aren't surfaces to support our hand) and not on individual preference

[apocalyptic0n3]

I've tried numerous keyboards and the conclusion I've come to is that there's low profile and then there's low profile. The bulk of the low profiles I've tried (NuPhy, Keychron K8, the mechanical Logitech, a few others) are definitely low profile compared to the Logitech Pro X TKL I use for my gaming PC. However, they're still tall. Most of the gains are from a shorter switch and keycap, but the body is still quite high.

If you compare it to the Apple Magic Keyboard I'm typing on now – and that seems like a definite inspiration for the Bayleaf – it's a stark contrast. The K3, for example, is more than twice as tall (10.9mm vs 22mm backrow). The Magic Keyboard feels fine to type on without any sort of wrist support and I never feel any strain. But on the K3, even with a support (tried both their wooden support and a similarly sized foam one), I would feel strain after an hour or two.

Most low-profiles are really just a middle ground between the two sides. And, at least in my experience, you get the downsides of both without any of the positives of either.

[lsaferite]

As a low-profile keyboard zealot, I'm trying to imagine why you'd need a foam pad under your palm. But maybe I'm odd. My entire forearm rests on my desk and supports my arm weight so nothing is pushing down on my hands. Then my hands flow directly over the LP keyboard without any appreciable bend in my wrist.

[makeitdouble]

My take is that finger muscle are really different from person to person, to a degree that can be surprising.

I might be at the other extreme end, but even typing on glass doesn't bother me much, and laptop keyboards are a good compromise to have just enough travel and not too much.

I tried a nuphy low profile and it was tiring after a while. The thinkpad standalone trackpoint keyboard has been my go to for a while, and tgis keyboard also looks great to me.

[hinkley]

Squishy keyboards make the tendons on the backs of my hand burn after a while. After Apple stopped producing their wired keyboard, which I used for everything, I bought a bunch of surplus ones and burned through them. I tried a few knockoffs, several of which were close, and now I’m on the wireless ones.

I was surprised as anyone when an Apple keyboard became my gaming keyboard.

[bee_rider]

Another opinion:

I want this keyboard to put on a bookshelf and never use, haha. It is really nice looking. It sounds like it was an incredible learning experience and making something so polished and professional looking is a real accomplishment. But low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting… my eyes ache for the beauty of the thing but my hands just ache.

But anyway, ergonomics are personal so I can’t really judge.

[volemo]

> ...low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting...

I agree with the tenting remark, I can understand the preference against low profile, but I sincerely believe ortholinear is way better for one's hands than staggered. Maybe you mean it's a shame it's not columnar?

> ...ergonomics are personal...

Hear, hear!

[LAC-Tech]

I like low-profile in theory, but in practices there's so many high quality mx profile switches, and everything in low-profile land seems a bit substandard. I can't go back to unlubed linears, or scratchy brown clones.

[__MatrixMan__]

I agree. It looks like with this it would be near impossible to press the lower left/right keys with my palm, which is something that helps take the load off my pinkies. It does look like a fun project though.

[volemo]

Sorry for uninvited advice, but you really shouldn't be using the keys in the corners for common actions (so common that you have a need to take the load off you pinkies). Utilise the CapsLock [1, 2]. (This key is so misbalanced in terms of prime key estate to utility ratio!) Better yet, try using home row modifiers [3].

[1]: https://wiki.c2.com/?RemapCapsLock

[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/1442ads/mapping_capslo...

[3]: https://mattgemmell.scot/home-row-mods/

[__MatrixMan__]

Mostly the offenders are enter and -=[];'./_+{}:">?. My solution was to move \)}>][<({/ to the center (two new columns between G and H) and then to move enter and " to the corners for palm pressing--this is all at the "symbol" layer which I activate by holding the keys where my thumbs go. I rather like it: https://configure.zsa.io/planck-ez/layouts/RgRVl/latest/1

So I guess that means that the position formerly occupied by caps lock is now... 'a'? I haven't bothered to configure a caps lock. Haven't needed it.

Bonus, this is all handled in the keyboard firmware so I don't have to bother reconfiguring the OS. I just plug in the keyboard wherever and I'm all set.

So while I like your advice... I may be too far gone to take it. I can still type on a normal keyboard with their silly staggered rows to prevent typewriter jams, but I don't think I'll ever go back to feeling like it's a good idea to do so.

[volemo]

TBF, I strayed quite far from “normal” keyboard as well [1]: I use a 36 key split (15+3 for each hand); Dvorak layout; all special symbols are on L2; return, escape, tab, and space are on the thumb clusters (along with backspace and language switcher); modifiers are on the home row. All this ensures no finger ever has to travel more than one key away from its resting position. I’m quite happy with this setup and am working on a thinner and more polished version of my keyboard. To each their own, I guess.

[1]: Writing the GP comment I was cautious not to be that rando who goes “you’re doing it all wrong! you gotta reconfigure your whole system and your brain!” to a stranger, so I limited myself to the, IMHO, bare minimum advice. ;)

[__MatrixMan__]

I like the look of those minimal split setups. I'm currently using a planck half the time and an ergodox the other half. But because my brain has moved into the planck, more than 50% of the keys on the ergodox are just gathering dust.

My next step on this path, if I ever take it, probably resembles your setup. If/when I take it, I'll explore the modifiers on home row approach, it does sound nice :)

[exitb]

It really depends on personal preferences. I find it best to hover the wrists while typing and rest while idle. In such case no palm rest paired with reasonably low profile works best.