[crazygringo]

I know what you mean, but there's also a big difference between key height and keyboard height.

There's also a common misconception that it's ergonomic to angle a keyboard "upward" (elevating the back of the keyboard), when correct ergonomics is actually to angle the keyboard downwards (elevate the front).

See if you have a long object a little shorter than your foam cushion that you can scotch tape to the bottom of the front of a low-profile Apple keyboard, so that you still use the foam cushion but the front of the keyboard is at the same level as the cushion, and then angles downwards.

And then you get the advantages of the short key travel, which just means your fingers move less and so there's less force/strain.

You may find it shockingly comfortable!

[luqtas]

keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on your wrist support, arm position/chair height... what's optimal and generic to suggest because how our upper extremity muscles are, (at least for mouse but i think it can work for keyboards too) [0] is having it sides angled from 20° up to 30°, subjective exprience also plays a role

you can easily find MX switches that have equal or +- 0.5mm travel lenght as low-profiles ones... which considering how thin PCB (and even handwired) flat keyboards are, i can't see the point unless you are supporting your arms in the same table your keyboard is! i rather have my arms floating so i can use shoulder and elbow movement for distant keys other than wrist movements but who cares :P

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...

[crazygringo]

> keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on...

It doesn't. But to clarify: it should always be downwards relative to your forearm. And your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too).

A keyboard that is angled upwards puts constant strain on the top of your wrist. There are no circumstances where this is a good thing (assuming you don't have injury/disability that requires other accommodations).

Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways. It has no relevance to angling keyboards up/down. (But yes, "vertical" mice, that are angled in reality, are much better too.)

[jwr]

Correct. So many people get this wrong, and there are so many misconceptions around, that there is actual market pressure to deliver upwards-tilting keyboards and wrist pads.

If you want to get your keyboard and desk ergonomics correct, look at pianists. They have it nailed down. Elbows at right angle, no wrist supports, sitting straight. And guess what, the piano keyboards are not upwards-tilting! Unfortunately, most of our desks are too high relative to the chairs we sit in.

[luqtas]

various resources from universities recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°, which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all... [0]

> Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways

the author points out another research, i should have linked it instead of that one [1]... but it's about the ideal slanted angle considering how our muscles are structured; the author even cites that suggestions as something not taking relative preferences, which is totally fair as some people may use their computers for a short time in very awkward positions and that's fine

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10506...

[1] yet about mouse but please take your time to read what's was typed in the paper regarding the slant angle suggestion -- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02680...

[crazygringo]

> recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°

That's what I said ("your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too)"). Never upward.

> which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all.

If you want a 10° downwards angle on the keyboard relative to your forearm and your forearm is 5° upwards, then your keyboard still needs 5° downward relative to your desk. If your desk is so high that your forearms are angled up 20° from the horizontal, then something is extremely wrong with your chair/desk height.

And your first link supports exactly what I wrote:

> The natural position of your hands with respect to the relative vertical position at the wrist is along the plane or below it (i.e. you want the tips of your fingers to be at the same height as your wrist or preferably slightly lower). When your hand rises above this plane (making the hand signal for 'STOP'), this is called dorsiflexion or wrist extension. This greatly reduces blood flow through the wrist and can quickly cause pain, fatigue and numbness. Most keyboards have a 'foot' located at the back of the keyboard which is not desirable as it creates a positively inclined keyboarding surface. Many articulating arms offer the option of a negative inclination, which will make the entire work surface slope away from you, ensuring that your hands are not 'bent' upward at the wrist.

And I don't know why you've added another link about sideways mouse slant. That has nothing to do with up-down keyboard/arm angle. If there's some relevant sentence in it, please quote it, because I can find nothing relevant in the publicly available text.

You ask me to "please take your time to read" -- I suggest you take the time to re-read your own first link. It makes clear there is no situation where a keyboard angled upwards (the back of the keyboard elevated) is good ergonomics -- exactly what I said.

[luqtas]

you are right, i always considered the front of the keyboard what you considered the back, sorry for this (and by the way, i changed the link to a more generic one citing the variation of 90° -> 120° i typed of one easily finding by surfing the internet)

on the 2° paper, > Among the five tested mice, the 25° or 30° slanted mice caused lower muscle activity and more neutral working postures for ECU, Trap and PT muscles.

these muscles are also used during keyboard usage. slant angle is always suggested on ergonomic research, as our arms muscles are tensioned/twisted when using a flat keyboard/mouse... you can easily find research pointing slant angle on ergonomic keyboards but the research i pointed out is interesting as the author actually studied which is the optimal angle based on our anatomy (there's tension/forces on greater slant angles to maintain the posture, as there aren't surfaces to support our hand) and not on individual preference

[crazygringo]

No worries! Just trying to save people from wrist pain. :)

And yes -- slanting the keyboard that way is usually called keyboard tenting. Also highly recommended, but difficult to implement in practice because it requires an even lower base for the keyboard, and there aren't many good accessories out there for it, sadly...

I'm still waiting for someone to sell a cheap kit for angling keyboards downwards and implementing tenting. It's kind of complex to do both at once...