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by spwa4 493 days ago
Are you joking? China and Russia want "a new world order", which is a reference that would be extremely clear to (older) politicians but not to most people. The US (even under Trump) supports the UN world view, which is a lot of independent small countries that serve their own interests, protected by a group of nuclear-armed "superpowers" that can annihilate each other, but only at the cost of their own lives.

The "new world order", Putin said it most explicitly. It is to not necessarily end countries as a concept, but to create 2 kinds of countries: the "superpowers", with in his case a focus on Russia, but essentially the US, Russia, China and maybe India. Every other country would have to choose one of the superpowers ... or face military action and invasion. And, like Belarus, Moldova and Hungary, but equally Mongolia, Tibet, ... would have to do what their allied super power wants, whatever it wants.

This usually means giving up their natural resources without getting the best price on international markets. But it can mean other things, like sabotaging other would-be superpowers (like Hungary's "EU membership" that is working overtime to prevent EU "interference" in Ukraine)

Now rule number 1 of the "old" US-centric post-WW2 world order is, of course, no moving country borders, under any circumstances. There is a tiny escape hatch, which is that if you absolutely utterly for some reason have to move country borders, you need agreement of EVERY nuclear power (this is the UN security council), and a majority of all members. Now Palestinians want to conquer Israel ... and ... well. Sorry. Not allowed. If that's allowed then this might spiral into 500 conflicts worldwide with a lot of countries trying to conquer ... something (like natural resources, harbors, eradicate and/or replace some ethnic group (for example Rwanda/Congo) ...), and because of the total military dominance of a few countries, lead to the "superpowers-get-anything-they-want-for-free" world order vision of Putin and Xi.

Hence how the cards lie: US - wants the "two state solution" (meaning Israel and Palestinians DO NOT MOVE). This solution has the problem that Palestinians (and most of the world's muslims) hate it, and after 7 or so wars, Israel is no longer much of a fan of it, either. But if there's one thing that neither the US, nor China, nor Russia, nor the UN cares about, it's what anybody other than they themselves want.

Russia and China - want the situation destabilized. Just so we're clear: they don't want Palestinians to win, they want war. They want the whole middle east fighting, which seems achievable, they want borders to move because that will be one more argument for their new world order. You should not misunderstand this as wanting to help the Palestinians. They DO NOT want Palestinians to win. Just to not lose quite a rapidly. Get enough people to die on a constant basis to get the middle east boiling, nothing more. They want chaos, and they probably perceive Israel's attitude as being 20% removed from finally giving the Palestinians the chaos they so desperately seem to want (I would argue Palestinians don't really want war, they just have corrupt leadership that keeps getting bribed by Russia and now China to cause war. For Palestinians, it's about money for the rich, not land, not religion or racism. Even though they are racist pseudo-religious fanatics, but beyond a good sounding excuse, that's not important at all. The world is full of racist pseudo-religious groups of fanatics).

What China and Russia see in the Palestinians is a way to create war, create chaos. To be able to say to African nations "you know, if Chinese companies get to mine those lithium deposits in your country, we could protect you from your neighbor that wants to eradicate your people with Russian weapons ... deal?"

I would argue that absolutely nobody other than Putin and the CCP want that (and therefore, yes, rational people want the Palestinians to lose any conflict as badly and as quickly as possible, to minimize the chance of the conflict blowing up, while simultaneously pressuring Israel to leave the status quo alone)

5 comments

> They want chaos, and they probably perceive Israel's attitude as being 20% removed from finally giving the Palestinians the chaos they so desperately seem to want

Did you come to this conclusion on your own, or did you see it in an article from some think tank?

do other americans think the way as same as you? that "we are the less of evil and the necessary evil" "there are bigger evil outside we must support the empire"

A lot of Americans support America being the world police, yes, among them capitalists who like having international waters and various canals and straits open for business, but also a lot of Christians who consider more atheistic nations a threat to global christendom (hence the weird alliance between the American right and Orthodox Russia)

I recognize America has a lot to answer for (Israel too) but I also consider it preferable to a world with Islamic and communist nations being ascendent (the presumed outcome of a weaker America among those of us who like the defense budget where it's at)

You neglect to mention that America is a nation, like Europe, with massive imports and exports. Which require safe seas. In particular, they require safe seas in the Mediterranean and especially the Suez Canal.

In other words, it's not like the US does this for brownie points. It's absolutely required for the economy the US has.

Thank you for proving my long-held guess
well there are also a lot of americans who support america _not_ being the world police.
Certainly! And we all have our bubbles, I wanted to add myself as a data point in the “nuclear carrier groups are badass” column, and obviously there as enough engineers who don’t mind working at defense contractors to build the things, just as there’s plenty of engineers who threaten to quit their job at the first hint of a military contract
i do agree with this
I don't think China wants chaos per se. I don't think either China or Russia want a situation where any given state can just decide to invade another state and move borders.

What you described as a "new world order" is a return to spheres of influence. The regional hegemon usually wants some degree of stability within their sphere. The whole imperial project is impeded when your subjects are fighting each other.

I think it is true that both Russia and China are open to limited chaos now, but not as a constant on-going feature. Chaos now is just a symptom of the current system in terminal decline. I can imagine all major powers of a new system using the relative stability of the new system as a legitimizing point (aimed both at domestic consumption, as well as to their subject states).

Finally, I think describing "what the US wants" right now is basically impossible. Even before Trump, there has always been (and especially in the last ~20 years) this ever growing chasm between the reality of soft empire, and "what the man on the street" believes and thinks about the reality of American power and its benefits and costs.

> Now Palestinians want to conquer Israel ... and ... well. Sorry. Not allowed

Look at a political map of the area over time dude.

What a deranged take on things. Makes you wonder what you have to do to get banned around here.

> For Palestinians, it's about money for the rich, not land, not religion or racism. Even though they are racist pseudo-religious fanatics,

I think even a hasbara troll farm would be slightly embarrassed with this nonsense ...

Yes Russia and China are causing Israelis to elect people like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir.

Xi Jin Ping finances terrorist violence in the West Bank. Putin funds politician that wave around Greater Israel maps in official government gatherings.

Oh wait that's the US!

The fact that you cite Israel as a model for US-backed border stability is hilarious. This is being misinformed on an embarrassing scale. It is ahistorical idea constructed only of state department press releases.