[swimorsinka]

I can confirm this. Former Senior Manager from Big Tech Co here (I just resigned 2 weeks ago). When I left, we were in the middle of offshoring all of my groups to Amsterdam. No stock compensation in Europe = cheaper devs. There was no real talk of replacing anyone with AI. We all used copilot and the other LLMs as tools, but you still needed devs who understood the systems and how to debug the generated code.

[alephnerd]

Can second this as a PM turned VC.

In Cybersecurity and DevTooling we've moved the entire Engineering and Product function to Israel, India, and Eastern Europe (Czechia, Poland, Romania).

We'll still fund founders in the US, but they still end up hiring in those countries instead because you can pay "Austin in 2010" salaries and get top tier talent.

20 years ago, P/L responsibility would remain in the US, but in the current iteration, even P/L stakeholders are now abroad.

[msthrway8709]

Thirding this, group manager at Microsoft. Throwaway as I post regularly under my professional account.

VPs have been explicit, in writing, that we are shifting heads to lower cost geos.

Hiring has been largely halted in the US for the bulk of non-business-critical roles to shift PCNs overseas, and there have been multiple waves of US focused layoffs to motivate this further.

While offshoring has been a topic for the last 20+ years of my career, this time, since 2022 or so, feels different even vs. prior recessions, and I expect we'll see continuing erosion in the quality of engineering positions and careers.

[swimorsinka]

It’s hard to know if this most recent move will be more permanent. The irony with Amsterdam was that they had a hell of a time hiring. They had to import 80-90% of their labor from Eastern Europe or elsewhere and everyone had visa issues and would take 2-4 months to start. I also think the company will get a rude awakening in a few years when they realize they can’t just fire everyone or do layoffs like they were in the US.

[msthrway8709]

Some of the pessimism comes in that I've seen larger "centers of gravity" being built in these regions with full reporting chains vs. effectively being the offshore wing of another team, as well as commensurately higher levels of product ownership and growth or traction over the last few years.

Additionally, can obviously only speak for myself but I've tended to see more hiring in countries without the strong european worker protections (eastern Europe, Israel, india, asia)

[redphony02]

I created an account specifically to reply to this comment. I am the Romanian that Engineering got outsourced to. Year 2 of college, first job ever.

I feel bad in a way, considering that I probably stole some other engineer's job simply because I am cheaper.

It's a moral problem I hadn't(or rather, didn't want to) consider before reading this comment thread.

I love the people I work with(both overseas and local), but comments like these make me wonder if I've made the wrong choice.

[msthrway8709]

As an American impacted by this, I can at least personally say that if anything the fact that you got a job is one of the few upsides in all this.

I don't begrudge a romanian SWE any more than a US one, we're all just trying to get by here, and the fact that global megacorps can do currency/economy arbitrage that they prevent workers from benefiting from while ensuring they have every advantage is by and large not your fault.

It should have been for us as engineers to organize, unionize, or legislate protections if we didn't want this to happen, and despite advocating this to my peers during the boom years, I was constantly rebuffed.

Obviously I put more on the massive companies with the power to dictate global laws and trade practices gleefully jumping at this, but between that and the responsibility I put on my peers/myself to fight against that, I certainly don't put blame on you.

[usefulcat]

I don't think you should feel bad. It's a bit like feeling guilty because it's raining where you are while somewhere else in the world people are suffering a famine due to lack of rainfall.

The only difference is that you have zero control over the weather and very nearly zero control over corporate hiring decisions.

[vitaflo]

The American dev you may have impacted has probably been automating away someone else’s job(s) for years. This is just how business works and I wouldn’t feel bad about it at all. Qualified people will land on their feet.

[alephnerd]

> It's a moral problem I hadn't(or rather, didn't want to) consider before reading this comment thread

> I love the people I work with(both overseas and local), but comments like these make me wonder if I've made the wrong choice

It's out of your control as an IC. That said, do whatever you can to prepare for the worst.

Your a competent engineer, just like anyone else in any other country.