[wruza]

Oh, that slippery slope again! First you give them tablets, and next day their

children were forcibly taken from their families and communities between 1910 and 1970

Excuse me, but this is pretty much different line of thinking from mine. I’m confident that they don’t need children forcibly taken from their families, sure. But tablets are okay.

[jodrellblank]

It was this line of thinking which lead to the One Laptop Per Child failure. See "Why do Western Designs fail in Developing Countries" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRtyxEpoGg

OLPC is discussed from ~9 minutes in, but the whole thing is relevant. OLPC started when Seymour Papert and Nicholas Negroponte went to Senegal to teach people to code, and found that there was no good reason to learn to code if you live in rural Senegal and people were not interested. They decided they knew better and doubled down, making the OLPC project, and when presenting their laptop to the world the African delegation at the conference objected to spending money on laptops instead of infrastructure, schools, water. Negroponte decided the target users didn't know better than him what they needed, so he ignored them.

"One of the things people told me is, look Nicholas you can't just give a kid a laptop and walk away. Yes you can". he said. And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child

[Chris2048]

> And he did. And almost none of the kids did any coding on the laptops.

This strongly implies one thing lead to the other, but WP isn't as committed to that link, providing a list of alternative explanations for poor adoption.

Also, I'm not sure how this constitutes "this line of thinking" comparing a developing nation to an island with no contact.

[jodrellblank]

The way you've phrased your comment seems like you're trying to make a rebuttal to something but I'm not sure how "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything. You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games?

The line of thinking is "they must want for their lack of addiction machines. I want to gift them and they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do, despite having none of my upbringing or cultural background or surroundings". No outsider even understands the Sentinelese language[1]. I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling. They're photographed on the beaches with bows and arrows[2]. They likely have no electricity. The idea that what they need next, what they would thank you for, is a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out. It's as ridiculous as saying what they need is a powdered wig so they can look fashionable when they next go to the Vienna opera houses, or that they need a timeshare in the Florida Keys for their summer holidays.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_language

[2] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=sentinelese&iax=images&ia=i...

[Chris2048]

> "it didn't fail for ONE reason it failed for MANY reasons" is rebutting anything.

It could have been none of those reasons, or only some of them.

The point is your quoted line mentions one reason for failure to suggest the project/lead was naive, but that may not have been a significant impediment.

> You're not sure how the idea of giving computers to African children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games is similar to the idea of giving computers to Sentinalese children with the expectation that they will be delighted to code their own computer games?

The African delegation would rather spend money on infrastructure, schools, water; is this the same in uncontacted North Sentinel Island? Africa is still developing, NSI is undeveloped, I think that can make a big difference, yes.

> I can't quickly find if they have a writing system at all, or schools, or a concept of formal or informal schooling ... They likely have no electricity.

Doesn't that support my argument above?.. That NSI is v. different from Africa and hence the OLPC project?

> a copy of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing is so ridiculous it shouldn't need pointing out

ok, but you're comparing the "same line of thinking" that seems specifically invalid in this case, but not for the OLPC case that you're comparing it to. It's also a bit of a straw man (in the case of OLPC) - the computers had many modifications made to them to make them require fewer cultural norms, it wasn't at all "Mavis Beacon". I don't see the original proposition "they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do". As such they weren't designed or distributed for uncontacted tribes.

[jodrellblank]

> "I don't see the original proposition "they will automagically understand them and enjoy them in the same way I do""

The parent comments in this thread, by wruza: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42989167 who clearly wanted to program in BASIC when on an island holiday and is imagining a Sentinelese child is the same as him and would want an "80's style OS tablet", that's the line of thinking I was talking about referencing Seymour Papert's line of thinking in the video I linked and making the same mistakes/assumptions.

The part in wruza's comment "with infographic manuals" - from what I can tell the Sentinelese have no cultural background for taking instructions from a piece of paper, which we have drilled into us since kindergarten if not earlier. No lifetime of experience for interpreting infographics which we have (fire exit signs, toilet symbols, all kinds of shops and services markers). No lifetime experience using technical gadgets, which we have back through TVs and tape recorders, remote controls and so on. They have not much record of being interested in and curious about things from the outside, we geeks have been raised to be interested in new technology, most Western adults aren't even interested. And many more, the idea of a thing you touch and it lights up - we have a lifetime of electric light experience, they don't.

The "line of thinking" is that they would see this thing on the beach and they would want to know what it was because I would want to know what the gadget was when I was a kid; that they would associate the laminated paper with the device, because I would; that they would interpret the marks on the paper as instructions, because I would; that they would want to follow the instructions expecting something interesting to happen, because I follow instructions; that they would successfully do it because I would keep trying until the thing I was expecting happened, despite them not knowing what to expect... etc. etc. is all steeped in "they would think like me" thinking, despite them having none of the surrounding culture and upbringing which taught us to think like we do.

This is the line of thinking the video describes Seymour Papert having, which failed with OLPC. Where he assumed children learn to walk without being taught to walk, which they don't. He assumed 12 year old children could repair the OLPC without guidance or any experience working with or repairing comptuers or electronics, which they couldn't. He assumed they would want to code on the laptops and would just figure it out without guidance because "children are naturally curious" which is a Western learned behaviour since we stopped making children work in fields and up chimneys and looking after their younger siblings and instead spend years encouraging curious playful education.

> "is this the same in uncontacted North Sentinel Island? Africa is still developing, NSI is undeveloped, I think that can make a big difference, yes."

If giving the OLPC to Africans and Uruguayans where they know what it is, know what it's for, are expecting it, have schoolrooms, classes, writing, teachers, hired people to teach the teachers how to use the laptops, deployed electric charging points and wifi towers for them, tried to use them, and still overall the project failed to achieve its goals, how is dropping a tablet on an even less prepared people possibly going to be more successful?

> "the computers had many modifications made to them to make them require fewer cultural norms, it wasn't at all "Mavis Beacon""

As per the video I linked, many of their modifications were to make them look like a pretty children's toy to appeal to Western donors, not to make them practical.

[wruza]

I’m not that interested in this heated continuation of my silly idea, but there’s a thing I want to share.

I got my first “computer” when no advanced electronics existed in the area. The best they could get was simple fixed-eink(?) display with some buttons and a trivial “chip”. But later all the kids got nintendo or better PCs, while I got nothing due to no money and “you have a computer already”.

And that was my driver. I had no games like SMB/SF/etc and no internet. This exact combo made me learn BASIC and later 8080 assembly (sick), by the alien manuals which I had no idea how to read, cause I knew the letters but not words. But I had a dictionary. Almost no one else learned how to program a computer, despite the abundance.

You got the idea, I think.

Ofc in a real aid case this idea will be lost in translation and they’ll receive a bunch of samsung tablets, completely useless on that island.

[crossroadsguy]

I assume you mean modern tablets. Shall we pick Android or iOS? Because since we are in the business of civilising why the hell not! And if Android, then can we begin with an e-ink display? :)

[wruza]

Something sinclair-like, but in modern packaging with modern energy saving and eink and touch kbd. So it can work from sunlight, run for weeks and endure sand.

I’d even budget one for myself, to speak the same language, so to say.

[natebc]

Which generation of 802.11 wireless networking do you think they have?