[mjfern]

> I prefer the plain android look, and dislike the various skins manufacturers have used (I really don't understand the "pee in the snow" model of skinning android to look and act horrible just so that the different manufacturers can make their mark on it - I'm pretty sure the majority of people tend to prefer plain android).

Tablet and smartphone manufacturers are doing this because they are trying to differentiate their devices. With the Android OS (along with Android apps) and the hardware converging to a dominant design (ARM-based processors, similar form factor), tablets will become commodities (Armdroid). Competitors will be forced to compete on price. Their margins will collapse.

This is what happened in the PC market. With the Wintel standard, PC manufacturers had little opportunity to differentiate their products. The OS and CPU are identical, as are the internal components and peripherals. What's left? The color of the case? Fingerprint readers? Ultimately, PC manufacturers were all forced to compete on price. As a result, while Intel and Microsoft earned margins in the double digits, PC manufacturers' margins were squeezed to the low single digits.

[charliesome]

Why don't manufacturers compete on quality instead?

I can walk into a store and see the Apple computers on one side and the Windows computers on the other. All the Apple computers look and feel beautiful, but the Windows computers are plastered with stickers and 'Beats by Dr Dre' branding. They're made out of what looks like the cheapest plastic ever. I can understand why Apple is absolutely killing it at the moment - it's because everything else is shit.

[yummyfajitas]

Lenovo certainly does compete on quality, it just aims for a different set of quality seekers.

Apple targets people who want their computer to look pretty. Lenovo targets the people who want to get stuff done.

Want to quickly scroll through a document? page up/page down/home/end buttons? Lenovo's got it. Want to change the volume easily and still have access to f1-f12? Lenovo's got dedicated buttons for it. Spill your drink? There's a good chance your drink harmlessly poured out through holes in the bottom (damaging at most the keyboard).

Need more battery life? Buy a second battery and swap them when the first runs out. Need more ram? Just open it up and put it in. Same thing if you want a new HD/etc.

Combine this with great linux support [1] and Lenovo is a clear win for me.

[1] At work we have macbook pros, getting it to work with linux was a disaster.

[generalk]

  > Apple targets people who want their computer to look pretty. 
  > Lenovo targets the people who want to get stuff done.

I'm no Apple fanboy, but this statement's ridiculous.

  > Want to quickly scroll through a document? page up/page down/home/end buttons? Lenovo's got it.

Two-finger inertial scrolling on the amazing glass trackpad. Or, Command-arrow keys. Same effect. Not one-button, but it's not like the functionality isn't there.

  > Want to change the volume easily and still have access to f1-f12? Lenovo's got dedicated buttons for it.

Macbooks have a "fn" key that can be held to modify the function key behaviors, and the unmodified behavior is a Mac OS X Preference option.

  > Need more battery life? Buy a second battery and swap them when the first runs out.
  > Need more ram? Just open it up and put it in. Same thing if you want a new HD/etc.

I feel the need to point out that these are completely valid arguments against the new Macbooks.

I have a Late 2008 Macbook Pro, the first unibody they made, and the only reason it still runs strong is because I've swapped the battery, RAM, and HDD (now an SSD). I love the new Retina Display Macbooks, but I don't know if I can put that kind of money down on a computer that isn't upgradeable. Not when it's my primary mode of earning a living.

[yummyfajitas]

I wasn't claiming a macbook can't scroll. I was just claiming that Lenovo has a lot of features that don't necessarily look pretty, but which make it easy to actually use the damn thing on an everyday basis.

Fewer buttons isn't necessarily better nor is it even simpler. The simplest thing in the world is a "do exactly what I want" button for every common value of "what I want". It's not pretty or as easy to market or as pretty, but it's highly usable.

(I'll skip the rant about my iPhone, and how it forces me to waste screen real estate on buttons that come built into Android.)

[generalk]

I agree, fewer buttons does not necessarily make a device simpler. There's a happy medium that I think Android hit with the four-button menu/home/back/search keys. Whenever I use an iPhone anymore I always cache-miss and try to find the hardware back button.

[primatology]

Not every screen needs a back button. You can't hide a hardware back button.

I'm with Apple on this one. The back-arrow button in the toolbar reminds me I'm in a hierarchal app, and the label reminds me what the prior screen was. It's just the opposite for me: every time I use an Android I hunt around the screen for the software back button.

[primatology]

The only time I've ever used a function key (F1, F2) in a Mac application was in Photoshop. Most Mac applications use Cmd+? shortcuts. So in effect, the volume/brightness controls have their own dedicated keys.

[yummyfajitas]

I use all 12 of them on a regular basis, except for F2. I just noticed F2 is free, so I bound it to 'revert-buffer, which I use all the time.

A single button works great for a gun. A computer does more things than a gun so it needs more buttons.

[sanderjd]

Though I'm not familiar with the Lenovo trackpads in particular beyond playing with them on display models, the trackpad on MacBooks is a huge differentiator over any of the ones I've had on PC laptops. It works so well you forget how well it's working until you start using a different computer with a trackpad that now feels completely broken.

[generalk]

It's honestly one of the reasons I'm still contemplating getting a new Mac when it's time to upgrade. I've never seen a PC laptop with both a comfortable, large, smooth trackpad and good drivers that provide the kind of scrolling you get with a Mac.

[vetinari]

As a Thinkpad user/owner, I don't use a trackpad and do not see a point using a trackpad, when I have trackpoint.

I have the trackpad permamently disabled, because that little red thinkgy among g, h and b keys beats it so badly, it is not even funny.

[w1ntermute]

> Need more battery life? Buy a second battery and swap them when the first runs out. Need more ram? Just open it up and put it in. Same thing if you want a new HD/etc.

This is one of the biggest factors for me in getting a PC laptop over a MacBook. When I buy a ThinkPad, I intend to keep it for 5 years. My friends with MacBooks all replace them every 2-3 years.

> Combine this with great linux support [1] and Lenovo is a clear win for me.

This is another big factor. I tell anyone who's interested in Linux that the best laptop for Linux is a ThinkPad. Everything works flawlessly out of the box.

[generalk]

  >  When I buy a ThinkPad, I intend to keep it for 5 years. 
  > My friends with MacBooks all replace them every 2-3 years.

Yeah that's one of the reasons I don't know if I'm comfortable getting one of the new Macbooks. I mean the Retina Display w/ 16 GB of RAM is lustworthy, but the RAM is soldered into place (thus the need to max it out at 16GB at purchase-time), the battery's glued in place, and the SSD is apparently replaceable but completely nonstandard.

But I'm confused about what to replace it with, and concerned that I'll miss some of the better OS X stuff. Keynote is fantastic for presentations. Never having to worry about hardware compatibility is pretty convenient.

[notallama]

the linux thing is not universally true.

i have installed a few different distros on my w500 over the years, and it runs hot every time. the ati drivers suck, the os can't seem to control the fans properly, and switchable graphics don't work. tried with opensuse years ago, and ubuntu a few times more recently.

i imagine it's better with a nvidia card, and no switchable graphics.

[vetinari]

T400 here with same results - with Ubuntu (12.04) it is hotter than with W7, switchable graphics does not work (works in Intel X4500 mode).

[vvhn]

> This is another big factor. I tell anyone who's interested in Linux that the best laptop for Linux is a ThinkPad. Everything works flawlessly out of the box.

I wonder what Linus Torvalds uses as a laptop ... Oh noes !!!

http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/19/an-interview-with-millenium...

[generalk]

Of course, what works for the guy who invented Linux might not work for someone who just wants a download/install/everything works Linux setup.

[sigzero]

"Everything works flawlessly out of the box."

It has come a long way then.

[Teckla]

"Want to change the volume easily and still have access to f1-f12? Lenovo's got dedicated buttons for it."

In preferences, you can set it so Fn+F1 through Fn+F12 trigger the usual features, so that you can still have easy access to vanilla F1 through F12.

Take some time to dig through the preferences menu on OS X, you'll be surprised how configurable things can be.

[mdkess]

Lenovo is awesome, except they seem to pride themselves in having the worst displays on the market. It's downright bizarre.

[jiggy2011]

This is kind of a chicken/egg perception problem. The perception is that if you want to buy a "posh" computer you should get a Mac. Therefor Mac=Expensive , PC=Cheap.

This is I guess part of the reason that auto manufacturers will use different brand names for different market segments. Because it's difficult to signal "I am successful and buy nice cars" with a Skoda badge.

An example of a "high end" PC would be Alienware, which whilst they have some nice hardware they just look horrendously tacky. Basically the equivalent of sticking florescent lighting all over your Subaru.

There is also the potential patent minefield if you want to start manufacturing things that look like or use similar materials to Apple devices.

[giulianob]

Thinkpads have great quality but I have to say I have not seen any touch pads that come anywhere close to the quality of the ones on a Mac. Luckily I prefer the Lenovo "nipple" over a touchpad but most people hate it and bringing a high quality touchpad to a PC would be a big deal IMO.

[w1ntermute]

> I prefer the Lenovo "nipple" over a touchpad but most people hate it

The problem is that no one gives the TrackPoint a chance. I've seen people who've used ThinkPads for years and have never even touched the TrackPoint. But if you spend about 30 minutes working with it, you'll find that it's superior to both mice and trackpads for 99% of tasks (gaming being the one exception, for which I keep a mouse on hand).

[jmj42]

I have to agree. While my current laptop is a Macbook (and inertial two-finger scrolling is awesome), I've been using Thinkpads for years (I actually have two for home use), and nothing beats the Trackpoint. It's fast and efficient, and you don't have to pull you hands away from the keyboard to perform mouse operations. For what it's worth, I even disable the trackpad on my Thinkpads and only use the Trackpoint.

[w1ntermute]

Same here, the first thing I did when I got my ThinkPad was to go into the BIOS settings and disable the trackpad. There's absolutely no need for it once you've gotten used to the TrackPoint.

[progrock]

I find that the nipple requires a little too much pressure (T500), which is a little tiresome. You can be really light to the touch with some touchpads (including simulated clicks.) I'd prefer a nipple more like a touchpad - something like you get on the Blackberries (not the old trackballs.)

[donatzsky]

You can change the sensitivity in the settings (and of course, there's the usual mouse-speed setting as well).

That said, I have found that some of the newer models have much more sensitive trackpoints than my T60.

Edit: Changing the cap can be useful as well. The concave tip in particular.

[jamesbritt]

I run Kubuntu on a W500 and set mouse sensitivity way up:

     xset m 5 1

so that I can move the cursor with a fairly light touch.

[giulianob]

You can tweak the pressure and speed

[pm90]

Hah, when I was a kid, I played an fps game using the nipple. It seems impossible, but after a while you do get used to it.

But my fingers did hurt a lot after playing for a few days, so I wouldn't recommend it :)

[Cieplak]

http://xkcd.com/243/

[Steko]

From what I see they do differentiate on quality. There's a huge range of android devices and they are going to stand out in any way they can -- software is just one more way of doing that.

[gxs]

Furthermore, they are actually doing a great job of this. I've used all flavors of android out there, to be honest, I recently flashed Jellybean on my Evo and sorely miss Sense UI. Tons of subtle little things that Sense gets right that are just plain lacking in Vanilla Android. Just my two cents.

[mrich]

Fully agree. It always amazes me how Sense gets bashed so much. They have really delivered some handy improvements.

[aw3c2]

Same here. I vastly prefer it to stock android both in looks and bundled functionality.

[Steko]

It's easy in July 2012 for Linus (or whoever) to say "why mess with stock android" as if it's always been as good as 4.1. These layers were built not just for differentiation but for base functionality/gloss that stock eclair/froyo/gingerbread lacked. And try not to be shocked but many users preferred those ui layers and those phones way outsold the stock phones head to head. Also it's vaguely relevant to remember that users are not the primary customer, carriers are and if Verizon couldn't slap their bloatware all over the original droids they might not have pushed it so hard.

[potatolicious]

This is a nonsensical analysis - there was a single stock phone on the market at any one time, which was always sold unlocked at full-price directly from Google, with little to no marketing.

Compared with the "customized" Android phones which were the subject of international marketing campaigns, deeply discounted with contracts, etc etc.

The notion that customized-UI phones outsold the stock, barely public-knowledge Nexus phones does not in any way imply consumer preference.

[Steko]

I'm primarily thinking of Galaxy nexus vs Galaxy S II for head to head as that's been the first one that's been pushed by carriers.

I suppose the Xoom qualifies here as well though or did you miss the international marketing campaign, massive coverage and then how it sold less units then tabs running gingerbread.

The bottom line is in any of these had really caught fire with real consumers as opposed to the hacker commentariat we'd see a lot more of them.

[lukeschlather]

The Droid 1 was stock, and it was a great phone. I'm sorry Motorola started skinning it.

[generalk]

  > These layers were built not just for differentiation but for   
  > base functionality/gloss that stock eclair/froyo/gingerbread lacked.

Certainly!

But then Android got awesome. 4.0 is good, and 4.1 is great. But manufacturers like Samsung and HTC continue to ship their phones with 4.0 upgrades that aren't upgrades! For example: my brother's Galaxy Note. He recently got the 4.0 upgrade from Samsung, which required him to download software (Kies) from Samsung and leash his phone to his laptop to upgrade. I have no idea why.

Then, we did the upgrade, but he's missing features: the 4.0 panoramic camera comes quickly to mind. The stock dialer and people apps, which are amazing, aren't there. The new in-call UI I believe also isn't there. Seriously, they're shipping 4.0 but holding some of the better UX upgrades back.

He even asked me what the hell was new about his phone. I said I didn't know. The menus look different, some of the UI controls are new, Face Unlock is a cool showoff feature, but besides that he's still running Samsung's diminished-experience crap.

[ZeroGravitas]

I'm planning to stick CyanogenMod 10 on my Note, so I agree to a degree but I'll point out that I got the ICS update over-the-air despite hearing lots of complaints about needing to use keis (a uk vs us thing?)I also wonder if "normal" people really want the UI of their phone to change radically after an update. I get the feeling that is part of the reason that iPhone remains superficially similar over multiple upgrades.

[mtgx]

People chose the Lumia 900 because of the design, not because of the specs and the OS (it used the same hardware and OS version as others 6 months before it, so why weren't they so interested in those?). They also chose the Galaxy S3 because of its (mostly) top notch hardware, not because of its "Nature UX" skin. People also tend to buy the iPhone because of how good it looks.

In fact I think there are 3 main reasons why people buy phones in general, and I'm thinking the mass-market here, not the "smartphone savvy" people, who fight over versions of the OS and new features:

1) price (most people have a price range in mind when they buy a phone)

2) design (most people want to either impress their friends or feel good themselves about using it everyday)

3) hardware quality (reliability, feel, display, camera, etc)

I doubt how the software looks is even in the top 5 priorities for most people. Branding is probably a top 5 one, too. When people think of a company that makes "crappy" phones, they generally don't think about how the software looks or works, but about the hardware, and they tend to also buy on brand, just like with many other types of products because branding offers them a level of "trust" that the device will be "good", and won't break a day after purchase.

So I think there's more to it than your simplified view of the market. Also with your logic, then the Windows Phone OS is dead on arrival because it both forces them to use the exact same looking OS, and even worse, it forces them to use the exact same hardware (pretty much).

[rahoulb]

However, I do know of three non-technical people who have said they're never getting "an android" again because their [Froyo/Gingerbread] experience was so bad. But as they're on 24 month contracts they have had (and still have) a lot of time for this dislike to grow. I have recommended Windows Phone to the one whose contract is almost up.

[ralfn]

Were they using stock android or crappyfied android?

Dont wait 24 months to suggest a windows phone. Suggest they flash a non broken version of android onto their phone.

[ConstantineXVI]

Why should I go out of my way to fix a broken product? The appropriate response to a phone running broken software is ignore it and buy one built by someone competent. Buying a broken phone only encourages the manufacturer to make more, regardless of what you do with it after they have their $400.

[ralfn]

It is not broken. It is old, and not being updated.

If they had bought a windows phone those 2 years ago, they would be saying the same thing about their windows phone.

But i agree that most android vendors suck at updates and should be avoided. But you should avoid their phones just as much when they are running windows.

Really, only Apple is doing this right: you get the full ecosystem experience for at least two years.

Those skinned android are often already six months behind and wont be updated.

But to compare a three year old android phone with a fresh new windows phone is unfair and illogial.

[rahoulb]

> Suggest they flash a non broken version of android onto their phone

They would have no idea what that even means.

[wslh]

You forgot the upgrade factor. Brands delay upgrades because they need to test their own customized stuff

[codeka]

I completely agree with him on this point. I had a friend ask me to install a Korean keyboard on their HTC the other day (I think it was an HTC One).

On my own phone (Nexus), I just install the Google Korean IME from the markplace and it works fine. But on the HTC device, they've apparently replaced the built-in keyboard with their own thing and it took me about half an hour to figure out that I need to install a complete keyboard replacement (not just an IME) and totally replace the HTC one with this other custom one. In what way does any of this help anyone?

[jbrechtel]

I can understand this reasoning, but is it really the case? In practice does anyone actually stick to HTC or Motorola because of their skins?

I know that the feedback I usually hear has a huge selection bias in this regard (almost all techies) which is why I'm asking the question.

Even considering the selection biased, I'd be surprised if people preferred these skins. I think that people who are aware of these skins, and the options out there, probably don't like them. If they're not aware of them then they can't prefer them, right?

[nl]

Some do prefer (some) of the skins. There are always active threads about reapplying the skins onto custom ROMS. HTC and Samsung skins are the most popular.