[ckozlowski]

Oh, they were dictated to. It was simply implied. "Let us repress our people and reclaim our neighbors, and the pipes will stay open."

Russia used that NG to bully and dictate to it's neighbors like Poland, Hungary, Romania, and others. Germany learned to keep it's mouth shut. Divide and conquer.

It's very likely that arrangement would have still been in place had Russia's "special military operation" succeeded. Kyiv would have fallen in days, and by the time Germany and the others felt any sense of unease, it would have all been fait accompli. "Oh well, wasn't us, that's a Ukrainian matter." and life would have gone on for Germany industry.

Only that's not what happened, and Germany and the others were forced to take a good long look at things and the ugliness behind it. Poland had been ringing the alarm bell for years, and they were right.

Other notes: - There's a lot wrong with how the German economy doesn't reward risk, and that stifles their innovation. Economics Explained on YouTube has done a few videos on this, and it's more than just Germany. I think there's ways to German prosperity that doesn't require just another Google however, just as the U.S. economy isn't solely dependent on it's tech giants for it's GDP gains.

- The "useless F35" argument is a tired and uninformed one which fails to understand much about how these platforms are developed and why they're developed in the first place. I'll direct you to a link here, which, while hardly academic, is spot on with it's examples and references. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxVsS9ZNUOU (TL;DW: Every plane goes through this stuff. No, drones won't replace everything; that ignores the role of the strike aircraft. And if the F35 is so bloody useless, why is China pursuing so many versions of their own? Because regardless of what the internet peanut gallery thinks, warfighters around the world know exactly what they need.)

[throwaway18792]

F35 are useful against insurgents. They are perfect for Israel.

Contrast that with Ukraine, where there is a de facto no-fly zone for both sides because anti-aircraft missiles are too good. That is why there is the strange mixture of WW1 trench warfare, howitzers, drones combined with glide bombs and missiles launched from far away.

China has other enemies than big ones. The Sukhoi 57 is also useless in a big power conflict, as we see now.

Germany only has big power conflicts to worry about, so why does it need F35s? Saudi Arabia on the other hand might need them.

[ckozlowski]

Israel has the F35 because it can strike Iran, not because of insurgents. And it was successful in this.

Anti-aircraft missiles are not that good. If anything, this conflict is showing that. But the platforms both sides are using aren't up to par either, which is why aircraft like the F35 were made. Vaunted systems like the S-400 didn't prevent Israel from reaching deep into Iran, which is giving some of it's buyers second thoughts.

Su-57 had serious problems because the Russian aerospace industry lacks the technical ability to build a reliable 5th-gen fighter. (Engine problems galore). They made some excuse around "its so good, we don't need it".

The rest of your argument is built around the premise that the F-35 is not for use in big power conflicts, which frankly is incorrect and the opposite: That's exactly what it's for. Much of the hate it gathered early on was centered around why it existed when insurgencies were the majority of what we were fighting. (You don't need a stealth strike aircraft to drop a 1,000 LGB on a Toyota with a DShK attached) but you certainly need one if you want to penetrate defended airspace.

If you can't penetrate said airspace, you throw glideb bombs from long range instead. =P

China's stealth fighter projects are not for "other enemies", but precisely in line with missions like the F-35: To penetrate defended airspace to attack high-value targets. Like Taiwanese and U.S. defense sites and naval assets.

But it is amusing how many accounts there are out there saying F-35 is useless and the U.S. should stop building them, while China, South Korea, Japan, India, and others are all working on building or are building its equivalent.

Good try.

[th123419]

> But it is amusing how many accounts there are out there saying F-35 is useless and the U.S. should stop building them, while China, South Korea, Japan, India, and others are all working on building or are building its equivalent.

The comment you reply to literally says that the Sukhoi 57 is useless and that the F53 is useful in certain situations.

It must feel very powerful to argue in bad faith and maintain upvotes just because the opinions align with the U.S. state department views. And you can do it from you own account because you know there is no penalty.

[ckozlowski]

I left Russia out not because they don't want an F-35 equivalent or wouldn't benefit from them. But because the Su-57 in particular is a bad airplane.

Sorry if I wasn't more specific on that.

But the point I argued with the comment above is that the situations for which the F-35 is deemed useful is incorrect. It misunderstands the aircraft's role and the missions for which it's buyers intend. It makes broad assertions about the nature of warfare that have been repeated ad nauseum lately. I hope to correct the record there.

[tw1984]

> And if the F35 is so bloody useless, why is China pursuing so many versions of their own?

because China has the resources and motivations to bet on everything all the time.

back in the covid days, China invested heavily on all types of vaccines, more precisely, for each possible tech route, they invested in multiple companies. they ended up approving like dozens of different vaccines.

they are now leading in the EV sector, interestingly the CCP recently ordered to continue to invest on the R&D of ICE cars.

I needed a certain type of instrument in my current project, did my research and found there are three commercialised tech routes, one took by the US, one by the EU, China recently claimed to have invented the third route. guess what, they have 3 competing companies selling 3 different commercial products that implemented those 3 tech routes when the US and EU just have one company working on it each.

[maxglute]

> good long look at things and the ugliness behind it

German strategic thinkers probably saw the obvious before - profitable DE industry = RU gas inputs. DE security = US military and Baltic as buffer. It doesn't much matter for DE bottom line if UKR die if the gas kept flowing. Even if the Poles did the dying. If anything it would keep east euro labour cheap. That was really the optimal setup, the optimal was ugly, but acceptable.

Do German's really care if RU slaps around some buffer states if it kept their industries competitive and people wealthy? Of course as Europeans, they do. But we'll see in a few years how they feel as Germans, but current voting patterns hint no and imo GDP going to contract eventually when germans realize being dictated by US who promises (promised?) to protect her neighbours but also jacked up the pipe prices "feels" suboptimal for german prosperity. Germany sipping LNG directly from RU via NS2 even if their neighbours burn is going to "feel" more optimal in retrospect.

But realistically/geopolitically, DE continuing RU energy relationship even post war would piss US+co off too much, and US has much more net leverage on US-DE trade surplus than cheap RU gas. Frankly that's a much more difficult/awkward conversation(s) between "friends" to have than if someone made decision on DE behalf by having NS2 mysteriously explode, and everyone not think too hard about it. Saves bickering. Saves face.

Regardless, in the military sense F35s is useless for Germany because in world with cheap RU gas access, DE wasn't incentivized to use it against the Russians regardless. Now without RU gas, DE now knows buffer states can hold out against RU, so it's still frankly not optimal procurement vs just dumping that cash into reviving domestic DE MIC. But what ~10 billion dollars of F35s are useful for is ensuring Germany keeps getting US gas, and maintain ~70 billion per year of trade surplus from US, whose going to continue buying overpriced DE cars, since cheap PRC cars will be functionally banned. Likely same deal Korea got for complying with CHIPs. But that was under Biden. No telling what Trump will do with respect to trade imbalance.