[dataflow]

Overbooking and oversubscription are inherently very different.

Flying is a one-time service with a specific and fixed point at which the service is provided. Its peak usage is the expected usage.

Internet access is a continuous service promise where it's nonsensical to expect the provider to predict exactly when every customer would want to use it. The peak usage is not the expected usage.

These are not comparable situations.

[adriancr]

They are comparable for expectations.

You pay for a certain level of service, you expect it delivered.

[dataflow]

First: No, they're not. That is an unreasonable expectation divorced from the reality. What exactly do you think would happen if everyone in town switched off and on their AC-powered devices at the same time? What do you think would happen if everyone in town moves to the same street and starts using their cell phone to stream 4K videos at the same time? Do you seriously think it's reasonable to expect every system to deliver at its peak with arbitrary demand and load on it?

Second: If you're going to play the "I paid for this" game: this stuff is generally in the contract anyway. It is the level of service you paid for. The overbooking possibility? You paid for it, it was in your contract. Throttled service? That was in your contract too. You're getting what you paid for.

[adriancr]

> What exactly do you think would happen if everyone in town switched off and on their AC-powered devices at the same time?

Large systems have their own rules.

If everybody watches the superbowl at the same time I'd expect the power grid not to fail.

If everybody gets home at around the same time from work and start powering on devices I'd expect power grid not to fail.

If it suddently gets cold and people turn on heating around same time, I'd expect it not to fail.

Those seem valid expectations and are met.

Therefor when I say if everyone starts streaming netflix it should work, then this is also valid expectation and should be fine.

> It is the level of service you paid for. The overbooking possibility? You paid for it, it was in your contract.

I get what I pay for when I want. I have 1gbps, I can run full speed as much as I want and sometimes it's nice to do that.

I am also in europe. I don't get throttled service and what you say is not in my contract.

What do you say to that?

[dataflow]

You're not addressing the question.

> If everybody watches the superbowl at the same time I'd expect the power grid not to fail.

"I get what I want immediately" to "the system won't fail" is a nice way to shift goalposts. If everyone shows up to their flight then the flight won't crash, it'll depart just fine with the capacity it has and offer everyone else on the next available flight. You know, the same thing that happens when the power grid is turning back on. They do it one piece of the grid at a time. Which results in you getting less than what the person next door paid for. Because that's reality.

> I am also in europe. I don't get throttled service and what you say is not in my contract. What do you say to that?

When there are a ton of people crammed in the same location overloading the network, you get throttled, whether intentionality or not, whether you like it or not. There is no way on Earth that you being in Europe somehow makes you immune to reality.

[adriancr]

> offer everyone else on the next available flight.

Plus compensation which is an admission of fault on airlines.

> There is no way on Earth that you being in Europe somehow makes you immune to reality.

Perhaps you can think of how that might work, i can think of:

- large fiber pipes capable of accomodating spikes

- average out traffic for large systems - have predictable traffic at scale, scale up as needed, power on/off equipment, etc

[sgjohnson]

You clearly have no idea how the internet works.

The rock bottom rate for IP transit is $60/gbps. None of the infrastructure cost is included here.

And that’s with Hurricane Electric. They are a bit notorious for having probably the worst routing in the industry, but they are also the cheapest in the industry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_transit

It’s nowhere near as simple as “large fiber pipes capable of accomodating spikes”.

There are very good reasons why hyperscalers are building their own intercontinental undersea fiber networks. So they don’t have to pay for the _extremely_ expensive intercontinental transit.

Last I checked renting a wave capable of doing 400gbps between Amsterdam and New York was close to $80k/mo. A wave is basically a dedicated wavelength of light guaranteed to you and only you.

You don’t want your ISP to oversubscribe? Become your own ISP. Get an AS number. Get your own IP space (both of these can be done on the cheap, /36 of v6 is basically free and /24 of v4 can be had for $100 a month). Get a BGP session with a transit provider. Pay them for transit.

Get IXP links so you have direct access to AWS, Google and Netflix. Save on the transit costs there! But the IXP peerings aren’t cheap and on a small scale will certainly cost more than transit.

Congratulations, you’re now paying $1000 a month for 1gbps guaranteed. It gets cheaper with scale, but scale also increases your infra costs.

Everyone would be on 10mbps if ISPs weren’t allowed to oversubscribe.

I became my own ISP as a hobby (https://bgp.tools/as/200676). This hobby costs me $200/mo, and I don’t have any real transit, just cheapo VPSes in locations convenient for me.

Wanna know what my residential ISP whom I pay €19/mo for 1gbps residential service quoted me for a BGP session at my home on a business connection? €9800 in setup fees, €2000/mo, min. 3 year commitment + transit. Of course that was a “fuck off, we just don’t want to do this” quote, but the only alternative I have here is to pull my own fiber.

[abduhl]

From the first google result (although this was 5 years ago): “Europe gave internet service providers the right to throttle online traffic to prevent congestion as network demand spikes amid coronavirus stay-at-home and quarantine orders. Netflix and YouTube have already agreed to switch to standard-definition streaming in Europe to reduce bandwidth demand.”

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/coronavir...

[adriancr]

Right does not mean it's used. I would change provider if I were throttled.

> Netflix and YouTube have already agreed to switch to standard-definition streaming in Europe to reduce bandwidth demand.”

You can change quality back to whatever. You can also use other services or use the connection for other things.

[BenjiWiebe]

You're 99% on an oversubscribed connection, but the oversubscription ratio was chosen correctly so you'll likely never notice any problems.

Dedicated Internet access is a thing, but it's expensive; and I'd argue that even that is oversubscribed if you go far enough up the chain.