[CamperBob2]

It also fuels the income inequality with a fatter pipe in every iteration

Who cares? A rising tide lifts all boats. The wealthy people I know all have one thing in common: they focused more on their own bank accounts than on other people's.

So, tell me, how paying fewer people less money will drive their standard of living upwards?

Money is how we allocate limited resources. It will become less important as resources become less limited, less necessary, or (hopefully) both.

[danans]

> Money is how we allocate limited resources. It will become less important as resources become less limited, less necessary, or (hopefully) both.

Money is also how we exert power and leverage over others. As inequality increases, it enables the ever wealthier minority to exert power and therefore control over the majority.

[CamperBob2]

If that's a problem, why does the progressive point of view typically argue in favor of giving more power over our lives to the ruling class?

The problem isn't the money. The problem is the power.

[bayindirh]

> why does the progressive point of view typically argue in favor of giving more power over our lives to the ruling class?

Humans are interesting creatures. Many of them do not have conscience and don't understand the notion of ethics and "not doing of something because it's wrong to begin with". From my experience, esp. the people in US thinks that "if that's not illegal, then I can and will do this", which is wrong in many levels again.

Many European people are similar, but bigger governments and harsher justice system makes them more orderly, and happier in general. Yes, they can't carry guns, but they don't need to begin with. Yes, they can't own Cybertrucks, but they can walk or use an actually working mass transportation system to begin with.

Plus proper governments have checks and balances. A government can't rip people off like corporations for services most of the time. Many of the things Americans are afraid of (social health services for everyone) makes life more just and tolerable for all parts of the population.

Big government is not a bad thing, and uncontrollable government is. We're entering the era of "corporate pleasing uncontrollable governments", and this will be fun in a tragic way.

[inglor_cz]

"Many European people are similar, but bigger governments and harsher justice system makes them more orderly, and happier in general. Yes, they can't carry guns, but they don't need to begin with. Yes, they can't own Cybertrucks, but they can walk or use an actually working mass transportation system to begin with."

This comment is a festival of imprecise stereotypes.

Gun laws vary widely across Europe, as does public safety (both the real thing and perception of; if you avoid extra rapes by women not venturing outside after dark, the city isn't really safe), as does the overall lavel of personal happiness, as does the functionality of public transport systems.

And the quality of public services doesn't really track the size of the government even in Europe that well. Corruption eats a lot of the common pie.

[bayindirh]

> This comment is a festival of imprecise stereotypes.

I might be overgeneralizing, but I won't accept the "festival of imprecise stereotypes" claim. This is what I got with working with too many people from too many countries in Europe for close to two decades. I travel at least twice a year, and basically live with them for short periods of time. So this is not by reading some questionable social media sites and being an armchair sociologist.

> Gun laws vary widely across Europe...

Yet USA has 3x armed homicide cases in developed world when compared with its closest follower, and USA is the "leader" of the pack. 24 something vs. 8 something.

> as does public safety

Every city has safe and unsafe areas. Even your apartment has unsafe areas.

> as does the overall lavel of personal happiness, as does the functionality of public transport systems.

Of course, but even if DB has a two hour delay because of a hold-up at Swiss border, I can board a Eurostar and casually can see another country for peanuts money. Happiness changes due to plethora of reasons. Like Swedes' daylight duration problems in winter, or economic downturn in elsewhere.

> And the quality of public services doesn't really track the size of the government even in Europe that well. Corruption eats a lot of the common pie.

Sadly corruption in Europe is on the rise when compared to the last decade. I can see that. However, at least many countries have a working social security systems, NHS not being one of them, sadly.

[justwool]

Lmao attacking stereotypes with stereotypes.

Please what cities? You are just making up rape stats. That’s makes you the bigger idiot here.

Ohh yeah so much corruption I don’t literally enjoy Zagreb more than any US city I have been to and it’s not even special. Because if this is just have the shittiest argument ever there’s my anecdotal rebuttal.

[Jensson]

> We're entering the era of "corporate pleasing uncontrollable governments", and this will be fun in a tragic way.

Right, so the answer is not to make that bad government bigger, the answer is to replace it with a good government. Feeding a cancer tumor doesn't make it better.

[danans]

> Right, so the answer is not to make that bad government bigger, the answer is to replace it with a good government.

Bad government (where by bad I mean serving the interests of the wealthy few over the masses) is bad regardless of it's size.

If you believe in supply-side/trickle-down economics, you might use the opposite definition of "bad", in which case shrinking of government that restrains corporations (protecting the masses) by regulation or paying for seniors not to end up it total destitution (social security /Medicare)

The size of the government is less relevant than what it is doing, and whether you agree with that.

[ggregoryarms]

Trickle down economics isn't something you either "believe in" or "don't believe in". It's a disproven theory that does not work.

[FartyMcFarter]

It's not always true that progressives are for more government power. See the death penalty for example. It's pretty much the ultimate power a government could have, and who advocates for it? It's not progressives I believe.

[abduhl]

You think the death penalty is an exercise of ultimate power? It’s more an exercise of vengeance.

The ultimate exercise of government power is keeping someone locked in a tiny cell for the rest of their life where their bed is next to their toilet and you make them beg a faceless bureaucracy that has no accountability annually for some form of clemency via parole, all while the world and their family moves on without them.

[FartyMcFarter]

I don't necessarily agree with that, but even if it's true, I think my main point still stands about who is likely to support either thing.

[didibus]

In a free democracy, I think Progressives see the ruling class as those in a position to influence democratic rule with an outsized influence compared to 1 person, 1 vote. And that are those with money, or with too much centralized media power or popularity.

The employees of the government and those elected are not seen as the ruling class by progressives, but just normal people that have the qualifications and are employed to manage the government on behalf of the people.

It's important therefore that those elected and put in charge of the government are in a position where they don't have the power to benefit themselves or their friends/family, but are in a position where they can wield power to benefit the people who hired them for the job (their constituents), and that if they fail to do so, they can get replaced.

[mapt]

To be blunt: It doesn't.

The modern political binary was originally constructed in the ashes of the French Revolution, as the ruling royalty, nobility and aristocracy recoiled in horror at the threat that masses of angry poor people now posed. The left wing thrived on personal liberty, tearing down hierarchies, pursuing "liberty, equality, fraternity". The right wing perceives social hierarchy as a foundational good, sees equality as anarchy and order (and respect for property) as far more important than freedom. For a century they experienced collective flashbacks to French Revolutionaries burning fine art for firewood in an occupied chateau.

Notably, it has not been a straight line of Social Progress, nor a simple Hegelian dialectic, but a turbulent winding path between different forces of history that have left us with less or more personal liberty in various eras. But... well... you have to be very confused about what they actually believe now or historically to understand progressives or leftists as tyrants who demand hierarchy.

That confusion may come from listening to misinformation from anticommunists, a particular breed of conservative who for the past half century have asserted that ANY attempt to improve government or enhance equality was a Communist plot by people who earnestly wanted Soviet style rule. One of those anticommunists with a business empire, Charles Koch, funded basically all the institutions of the 'libertarian' movement, and later on much of the current GOP's brand of conservatism.

[danans]

> If that's a problem, why does the progressive point of view typically argue in favor of giving more power over our lives to the ruling class?

You've literally reversed the meaning of the term "progressive" by replacing it with the meaning of the term "oligarchic".

Progressives argue for less invasion by government in our personal lives, and less unequal distribution of wealth and power. They are specifically opposed to power being delivered to a ruling class.

> The problem isn't the money. The problem is the power

These are nearly inseparable in current (and frankly most past) societies. Pretending that they are not is a way of avoiding practical solutions to the problem of the distribution of power.

[Spivak]

I really get the feeling that people do not understand that progressive is almost a synonym for Libleft.

Those damn authoritarians, stripping the power from the oligarchs by massively taxing the rich and defunding the police. The bastards.

[palmfacehn]

Progressive is more precise than that. There are specific policies you can examine from the Progressive Era.

Ultimately it was the 'oligarchs' who argued in favor of the progressive agenda. Wall Street created the 3rd central bank, the US Federal Reserve. The AMA closed all of the mutual aid societies and their hospitals. Railroad barons lobbied for subsidies and price controls to eliminate their competitors. Woodrow Wilson declared war on Germany, "The world must be made safe for democracy"

Of course no would be authoritarian claims more power without claiming that they are doing it for the greater good or to attack the rich classes. The Progressive Era was smorgasbord of special interest handouts and grants to cartels. All of this was lobbied for by oligarchs.

[ggregoryarms]

Yeah, that commenter wildly misunderstands what "progressive" means. Like full on got the definition of the word backwards.

Is this common? People think "progressive" means "complete government control"?

Progressives support regulations to prevent both public and private entities from becoming too powerful. It's not like they want to give the government authoritarian control lol.

[djeastm]

I guess it depends on what you're defining as "the ruling class", because I believe most progressives would define it as "the wealthy" and would certainly not be in favor of that. Look at the AOC/Pelosi rift, for instance.

[Jensson]

Politicians are a part of the ruling class for any sensible definition of the word.

[didibus]

In free democracies, politicians are elected representatives, not rulers. They are accountable to voters through regular elections. Power is distributed across multiple branches/institutions. Citizens have protected rights and freedoms. Politicians can be voted out or recalled. Laws apply equally to politicians and citizens.

In practice, there's always a slippery slope, can wealthy people integrate themselves in that power structure, lobbying, media control, strength of checks and balances, level of corruption/transparency, etc. But when that slips, we stop calling it a free democracy, and it becomes an oligarchy, or a plutocracy, or an illiberal democracy.

[ggregoryarms]

Politicians do come in different flavours. There are some elected officials with good intentions. See again the AOC/Pelosi rift.

The more we regulate to get money out of politics, the more good people will have a shot at being elected.

These are all common progressive values. No true progressive supports wealthy unethical politicians gaining more power. Anyone telling you so is not speaking in good faith, or they are misinformed.

[pishpash]

Why would "resources" become less limited or necessary just because there's some AGI controlled by a few people? You're assuming a lot here.

Separately, is it "rising tide lifts all boats" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" that drives the common person's progress? You seem confused which metaphor to apply while handwaving the discussion away.

[CamperBob2]

Why would "resources" become less limited or necessary just because there's some AGI controlled by a few people? You're assuming a lot here.

The Luddites asked a similar question. The ultimate answer is that it doesn't matter that much who controls the means of production, as long as we have access to its fruits.

As long as manual labor is in the loop, the limits to productivity are fixed. Machines scale, humans don't. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about a cotton gin or a warehouse full of GPUs.

Separately, is it "rising tide lifts all boats" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" that drives the common person's progress? You seem confused which metaphor to apply while handwaving the discussion away.

I haven't invoked the "bootstrap" cliché here, have I? Just the boat thing. They make very different points.

Anyway, never mind the bootstraps: where'd you get the boots? Is there a shortage of boots?

There once was a shortage of boots, it's safe to say, but automation fixed that. Humans didn't, and couldn't, but machines did. Or more properly, humans building and using machines did.

[didibus]

> The ultimate answer is that it doesn't matter that much who controls the means of production, as long as we have access to its fruits.

That mattered a lot in communist places, we saw it fail. Same thing with most authoritarian regime today, it's a crap shoot. You simply can't entrust a small group with full control on the means of production and expect them to make it efficient, cheap, innovative, sustainable and affordable.

[bayindirh]

> Who cares? A rising tide lifts all boats.

Apparently people who are not wealthy enough to buy a boat and afraid of drowning care about this a lot. Also, for whom the tide rises? Not for the data workers which label data for these systems for peanuts, or people who lose jobs because they can be replaced with AI, or Amazon drivers which are auto-fired by their in-car HAL9000 units which label behavior the way they see fit.

> The wealthy people I know all have one thing in common: they focused more on their own bank accounts than on other people's.

So, the amount of money they have is much more important than everything else. That's greed, not wealth, but OK. I'm not feeling like dying on the hill of greedy people today.

> Money is how we allocate limited resources.

...and the wealthy people (you or I or others know) are accumulating amounts of it which they can't make good use of personally, I will argue.

> It will become less important as resources become less limited, less necessary, or (hopefully) both.

How will we make resources less limited? Recycling? Reducing population? Creating out of thin air?

Or, how will they become less necessary? Did we invent materials which are more durable and cheaper to produce, and do we start to sell it to people for less? I don't think so.

See, this is not a developing country problem. It's a developed country problem. Stellantis is selling inferior products for more money, while reducing workforce , closing factories, replacing metal parts with plastics, and CEO is taking $40MM as a bonus [0], and now he's apparently resigned after all that shenanigans.

So, no. Nobody is making things cheaper for people. Everybody is after the money to rise their own tides.

So, you're delusional. Nobody is thinking about your bank account that's true. This is why resources won't be less limited or less necessary. Because all the surplus is accumulating at people who are focused on their own bank accounts more than anything else.

[CamperBob2]

How will we make resources less limited? Recycling? Reducing population? Creating out of thin air?

We've already done it, as evidenced by the fact that you had the time and tools to write that screed. Your parents probably didn't, and your grandparents certainly didn't.

[bayindirh]

No, it doesn't prove anything. To be brutally honest, I have just eaten a meal, and have 30 minutes of relax time. Then I'll close this 10 year old laptop and continue what I need to do.

No, my parents had that. Instead, they were chatting on the phone. My grandparents already had that too. They just chatted at the hall in front of the house with their neighbors.

We don't have time. We are just deluding ourselves. While our lives are technologically better, and we live longer, our lives are not objectively healthier and happier.

Heck, my colleagues join teleconferences from home with their kid's voice at the background and drying clothes visible, only hidden by the Gaussian blur or fake background provided by the software.

How they have more time to do more things? They still work 8 hours a day, doing the occasional overtime.

Things have changed and evolved, but evolution and change doesn't always bring progress. We have progressed in other areas, but justice, life conditions and wealth are not in this list. I certainly can't buy a house just because I want one like my grandparents did, for example.

[michaelmrose]

Why wouldn't the people at the top siphon off literally 100% of the benefit whilst the people displaced bear 100% of the cost?