[michaelmrose]

We already admitted we were talking about trillions eg almost entirely our capital by any definition.

The people doing the most innovation will be the scientists who be compensated a tiny fraction of the money earned by the capital.

The people taking the most risk will be the people going.

Again the capitalists will be contributing little and risking almost nothing mostly their position on a scoreboard.

The person driving the school bus risks more and contributes more than the parasites.

[noch]

> Again the capitalists will be contributing little […] The person driving the school bus risks more and contributes more than the parasites.

Your basic assumptions are wrong and troubled by motivated reasoning. But I'm sure you can already tell where you are wrong so I won't condescend. Certainly you seem to have strong feelings, which is cool and all.

[michaelmrose]

> We aren't. It's the individuals who own the resources and money to implement space flight and Mars colonisation that are going to Mars.

> But the people who are doing the innovation and taking the most risk with their own capital will decide.

> will protest about the trillions of "taxpayer dollars that could be put to a better use"

There aren't any individuals that own the resources to implement space flight and mars colonization you yourself admitted as much with the "trillions of taxpayer dollars" Those last 2 quotes contradicting themselves are literally back to back

> Citizens don't really get a say in how national resources are deployed

Every two years we do in the US.

> Your basic assumptions are wrong and troubled by motivated reasoning. But I'm sure you can already tell where you are wrong so I won't condescend.

You have condescended to me but you haven't explained how I'm wrong and I don't think I am. If so pray tell.

Money as a fundamental unit of value outside of economics leads to nonsensical conclusions like taking a money guy who presently employs a stable of geniuses who themselves sit atop the result of man millennia of labor by singular irreplaceable people and assigning credit to the current idiot who owns the works.

It leads you to imagine that owning a hundred billion is as valuable a contribution as a million teachers or that someone who risks 90% of his fortune by ceding a bigger piece of the economic pie to another billionaire and thereby downsizing to fewer trips to space is somehow risking a billion times more than someone actually risking their life.

It's like listening to a psychologist try to understand the evolution of galaxies via their domain knowledge.

Capitalism is a method to allocate resources within a society it offers no meaningful truths about it. It is on the whole a massive failure only slightly less stupid than prior iterations of central planning.

Back on the topic of mars. It is fundamentally absolutely useless as a second home for man. It is at best a place where a small number of people can do interesting science. There wont be a meaningful number of people there because the entire idea is fundamentally flawed.

Would you like to talk about that or would you like to educate me about capitalism and government?

[lproven]

> There aren't any individuals that own the resources to implement space flight

This has already been falsified.

I personally have stood and watched fleets of satellites cross the night sky in naked-eye visible formations that were put there by private industry using reusable launch vehicles.

Your argument was valid in the 20th century but it's not any more. Things change.

[michaelmrose]

You yourself said it would cosr trillions in public money.

You addressed none of the reasons that going beyond a small scientific mission would be nonsense

[lproven]

> You yourself said it would cosr trillions in public money.

No I did not.

I think you are getting your threads confused.

[noch]

> Would you like to talk about that or would you like to educate me about capitalism and government?

Friend, you are really so boring and obtuse.

Here's the bottom line so you can write another thousand words coping:

Men are going to Mars. Men who own or run aerospace companies will make it happen. You aren't one of those men. Your protests and pontificating don't matter.

The costs will dwarf any projects humans have pursued so far. I hope the long term costs are in the trillions so that a quadrillion dollars of wealth is created!

To the extent that taxpayer dollar matter, it will be because nations don't want to miss out on the investment, not because they are needed.

Perhaps you haven't made your 1st million yet, so you really don't know how to create wealth or build substantial projects. It doesn't start with taxpayer dollars.

The future will not be boring.

[lproven]

> I hope the long term costs are in the trillions so that a quadrillion dollars of wealth is created!

This thread is annoying because you're both right and you're both wrong, about different parts of the argument, and you're too busy shouting at one another to notice and correct one another's actual errors.

For this specific one, I will merely quote the words of a wiser person than I.

"Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small, green pieces of paper, which is odd, because on the whole, it wasn't the small, green pieces of paper which were unhappy."

If you think it's about money you haven't understood the real issues.

Money is nothing more than a symbol, just like flags, and nations, and gods. Symbols for things that are not actual real things.

Symbols do not matter. Reality always beats symbols. Reality continues after any entities that can create and manipulate symbols cease to exist.

Focus on reality. Try to ignore symbols.

[noch]

> If you think it's about money you haven't understood the real issues.

Incidentally, and obviously, I completely agree with you.

And aside: People who think money is an actual limitation often sound to me like people who've never issued shares or been in a conversation with a municipality issuing debt. Money is literally not an impediment and I don't think money is an issue except to the extent that I was dragged into an argument about it.

You'll recall I spoke of "wealth", as completely distinct from "money". Of course you already know the distinction as you've alluded to it in your own post.

I'm interested in all the wealth that will be generated.

[lproven]

> I'm interested in all the wealth that will be generated.

Changing the name does not change the point.

I suggest you go read Iain M Banks's Culture novels.

You will have fun, because they are wonderful, but you will also learn what a civilisation that has moved beyond the concept of "money", "wealth", or "payment" would be like.

In brief: better in every imaginable way.

It is not about money.

[michaelmrose]

Pray tell precisely what am I wrong and what in this situation is the "actual real thing"

[michaelmrose]

I want a scientific mission to mars I hope doing so pushes science and engineering know how forward.

Going to mars on a larger scale is presently nonsense because beyond the science there is no reason to go there. There just isn't anything of exploitable value there.

We can't at this level of technology teraform mars nor live there without massive radiation shielding eg live like rats underground 99% of the time.

Furthermore every aspect of our technological civilization is heavily dependant on a long chain of products with their own deps stretching back in a massive graph.

Any such endeavor would be incredibly costly per person, yield little more than hosting a half dozen people, and require a constant input of goods from home without which everyone does.

This isn't a frontier town because its too expensive and it doesn't have things that can enrich home base for less than cost on acquisition.

It isn't a backup plan if Earth dies because exploding a 1000 nukes would leave the bombed out husk 1000x more livable.

Its not a second earth because we can't teraform it at present level of technology.

It won't create a dragon hoard of wealth because there is no reason to believe it will create any.

Its just a science mission like the ISS. It does actually start with government money because nobody has multiple trillions to spend on something that won't create wealth because why would it.

Please refute something of what I said.

Let's start with how a large scale colony is going to be viable and earn money.

Please consider the cost of constant support, how they will achieve self sufficiency and on what time scale including everything from mining to pharmacutical manufacturing how they will deal with radiation and so forth.

Please cite actual sources. While you shift from trying to look cool to actual debate please leave this shit at the door.

> Perhaps you haven't made your 1st million yet...

[noch]

> I want a scientific mission to mars I hope doing so pushes science and engineering know how forward.

I encourage you to implement this mission. No one is stopping you. I hope you succeed.

> Going to mars on a larger scale is presently nonsense

The history of humanity at every scale is men saying "x project is nonsense" while other men do stuff (I recall my grandfather telling me how he was told that building a 5 acre dairy farm in the middle of nowhere, with no roads and no technology was impossible and would bankrupt him. That farm eventually scaled up to a "larger scale" that he was assured was impossible).

You really are terribly boring, or terribly young, or both. Sad.

Here's the thing: you bore me. I feel no inclination to engage with your dull diatribe. I'm the wrong audience for you, and you're a waste of my time, as I am a waste of yours.

So, find someone who cares about or agrees with what you're saying and you'll have a more productive debate, I promise.

> Let's start with how a large scale colony is going to be viable and earn money.

Here's thing. If you answer the questions you raise, you win the prize at the next frontier. That's what innovation is about. You can be given infinite amounts of money anywhere in the world if you present solutions to questions that other men can't figure out. That's the game.

But you don't actually want to answer the questions: "how do we colonize Mars", "how do we build a 1M person base on the moon?" You want to moralize about your low expectations and treat your lack of imagination as a virtue. I categorically refuse to play that game. But good luck.

[michaelmrose]

There isn't anything on Mars that would warrant a city. It isn't merely inconveniently located like your dairy farm its amazing expensive, unlivable, and worthless outside of science which is why you want scientists studying it but its pointless to build a city there.

Its not about how we build a city there its about there being no reason to do so this century. It was fucking trivual to answer that question for Every other frontier and the dairy farm because however remote the farm it had soil and an atmosphere.

You are covering your complete lack of argument with condecention and absolutely nobody is buying it.