[tibbar]

I've never met an engineering team that used Riak, but it is used heavily as an example technology in Kleppmann's 'Designing Data Intensive Applications'. (I would say, informally, it's usually the example of the "other way" as opposed to other more well-known databases.) This does make me wonder what became of it, why it didn't take off.

[macintux]

Speaking as a former tech evangelist/engineer at Basho, there were a few significant challenges.

Riak is horribly unfriendly as a database: no SQL, it exposes eventual consistency directly to the developer, it’s relatively slow, and Erlang is a fairly unusual language.

While you can run Riak on a single server, you’d have to really want to.

Its strength is the ability to scale massively, but not many projects need that scale, and by the time you do, you’re probably already using some friendlier database and you’d rather make that one work.

[mrweasel]

I joined a company that had some investment in Basho and managed to sell Riak as the data store for a large client. It never really worked out, not enough of the SREs had be properly trained on Riak, the developers hated it because getting help and support was somewhat difficult, especially in an emergency.

In the end more and more data was offloaded to MariaDB, until one day the last remaining data couldn't justify the cost of the Riak cluster. I think we swapped out an eight node Riak cluster for two largish MariaDB database (one being a hot-standby).

For one of the other clients it was the exact same scenario, only we had been contracted in to help run the Riak cluster, which we didn't do well. Once they had migrate of it, to Oracle I think, the client left.

To me it always felt like it was just the wrong tool for that particular job. Someone really wanted to be able to jump on the NoSQL hype and sell something. They picked Riak, because it honestly looked really good, and probably was, compared to MongoDB, CouchDB or whatever else happened to float around at the time. It just wasn't the right tool for the problems it was applied to.

[btilly]

Back in 2011 I was working on a project that involved Riak. The difficulty and slowness for doing stuff corresponding to basic SQL operations was certainly a giant strike against it, and helped sink that project before it was released.

[p_l]

> corresponding to basic SQL operations

Ohhh, this brings memories of developers hitting the wall... Between different SQL databases!

Back in 2016 I was delegated at work to do ops on a project that had big data ambitions in Threat Intelligence space.

Part of how they intended to support that was Apache Phoenix, an SQL database backed by HBase, running on top of Hadoop that also provided object storage (annoyingly through WebHDFS gateway).

Constant problems with hung Phoenix queries and instability of Hadoop in entirety led me to propose moving over to PostgreSQL, which generally went quite well... Except several cases of "basic SQL operations" that turned to have wildly different performance compared to Phoenix and most importantly, to MySQL in MyISAM mode, like doing SELECT (*) on huge tables.

Fun times, got to meet a postgres core team member thanks to it.

[cmrdporcupine]

Thing is, Cassandra became and remained popular, with similar aspects (though in JVM instead of Erlang, so).

Though it had a couple years head start when there really no other options for people wanting that kind of kit.

[mst]

I remember somebody whose competence I rate highly talking about ending up picking Cassandra over Riak (at a point where Riak was technically decently mature) simply because of availability of ops expertise - basically his take seemed to be that Basho support was solid but they hadn't succeeded at cultivating people he could *hire* to handle as much as possible in house before calling in the gurus.

(I can't, of course, speak to the truth of this, only that over a couple decades of knowing the dude in question and working with him on and off he had sufficient Clue that I expect he did put in the effort before coming to that conclusion)

[wbl]

I feel building a threat intelligence product on Cassandra is a bit on the nose. What's next, calling the TCB Palladium?

[anotherjesse]

https://howfuckedismydatabase.com/nosql/ this infamous comic is about riak

[rubiquity]

That could also very well be about CouchDB which implemented indexes/views as MapReduce functions.

[senderista]

Back in the day we had a CouchDB MapReduce view (on Cloudant) which took a full month to rebuild (while an angry customer was waiting). The I/O inefficiency was absolutely off the charts.

[binary132]

I wonder if some of these issues could be addressed sanely in an extension to the functionality

[macintux]

We were working on ways of making it easier (such as CRDTs to reduce the amount of work developers had to do to leverage eventual consistency), but these were pretty challenging problems to solve.

One of our biggest disappointments: we had plans to add a way to enforce strong consistency leveraging (IIRC) something akin to multi-paxos, but couldn't get it to work.

[jtuple]

TBH, we shipped fully working strong consistency in 2014. It just had a limited feature set, was disabled by default, and was never promoted/marketed since it didn't fit the direction the new CEO/CTO was pushing.

The engineering exodus around that time sorta killed the project though, and we never were able to do the big follow-up work to make it really shine.

(Disclaimer: Former Basho Principal Engineer, primary author of strong consistency work, lead riak_core dev from 2011-2015)

I think another 18 months would have been enough too. But it just wasn't the right environment after the hostile take-over / leadership transition.

[NickM]

There were customers happily using strong consistency in production, but somehow the idea that it wasn’t “finished” kept getting repeated over and over by management. I was well on my way to solving the biggest rough edge (tombstone reaping in SC buckets) but then I got pulled off to work on the infamous “data platform” and never got to finish that work :-(

[masleeds]

I'm not sure though for how much longer it will continue to make sense for the project as-is to continue to roll riak_ensemble forward as part of future releases. As there are no contributors who have direct direct experience or knowledge of using it in production, so it is hard to claim it as being a supported part of the product in any real sense.

I apologise if we do eventually cut it. Having worked through the code when chasing unstable tests, I developed an appreciation for the quality of the work.

[binary132]

If you don’t mind my asking, how did you find working with Erlang in such a context? I’ve always been curious about it, but these days it seems like most people are mostly interested in Elixir for REST APIs and I am content with my existing tools for that purpose. However, there are clearly places where OTP and other Erlang functionality would shine and I’ve always thought it might be fun to keep in my back pocket.

[macintux]

My apologies for misremembering. I’m glad you chimed in to correct the record.

[binary132]

that sounds like a painful session

[0xbadcafebee]

I worked on a team that built a massive, high-performance internal service based on Riak. There are many things I learned from that system. Here is the best takeaway I can offer:

It does not matter what your technology is, or how theoretically superior it is. Getting it to actually work well "in production" is a whole separate thing than simply designing it and writing code. When it's a very small system, it will look like it's doing great. As it gets bigger, the seams will start to burst, and you will find out that promises and theory don't always match reality.

In the end, while its aims are great, it takes a whoooooole lot of work to smooth out the bumps in such a system. You need experts in that technology to address bugs in a timely manner. You need developers versed in the system to properly build apps utilizing it. You need competent operators to build, orchestrate, operate and maintain the whole thing.

All of that is made easier by using simple technology that everybody knows, that there's a huge support community for, professional services for, etc. A technology like MySQL or Postgres etc, has the corporate, development, support, etc to make it easy to work with at any scale. A little janky at times, limited, but dependable, predictable, controllable.

A small bespoke system with a small support community and virtually no corporate support is, comparatively, a hell of a lot more difficult/costly to support and harder to make work reliably.

[red_hare]

My old team used Riak in production for time series data in a real-time system.

Our code was in Clojure, and we just wrapped the Java client. The conflict resolution was a steep learning curve, but overall, it was kind of nice (coming from Mongo).

But man, Clojure stack traces wrapping Java stack traces wrapping Erlang stack traces in a Kafka consumer... I wish that hell on no one.

[mst]

This feels like it needs a "yo dawg, I heard you liked stack traces" meme.

Also bourbon. Probably *lots* of bourbon.

[rmetzler]

> I've never met an engineering team that used Riak

I was part of a recent cloud migration. Part of on-prem (though unfortunately not migrated by my team) were this very first Riak Cluster I saw in production.

The engineering team used it as "kind of S3" for images, with 3 to 5 PHP scripts providing an interface to Riak and imageMagic. It seemed to me like a good abstraction and I think the migration to S3 was mostly painless.

Other than that I only had contact with Riak at university around 15 years ago, when we tested cluster setups of several NoSQL databases and tried to manually introduce faults to see if they could heal. Riak passed our test at that time, MongoDB didn't.

[Adkron]

I've talked to some people who use Riak as an S3 and reported that their reasoning for sticking to it is 2 to 4 orders of magnitude faster than S3. This blew my mind, but then they showed me 20ms response times from their Riak cluster and 2-second response times from S3. Now, I think these aren't standard, and in my experience, I'd say Riak is more like a single order of magnitude faster.

[rmetzler]

I would imagine that most of that is probably due to latency. Which might already be worth the extra effort, depending on the usecase.

[bojo]

I'm pretty sure Stripe was a heavy user of this for a while. They used it due to their write-heavy system, if I recall.

I fondly remember writing a Go driver for it. Was a good experience: https://github.com/riaken/riaken-core

[veyh]

We used Riak at $dayjob at around 2014-2017 (iirc). I don't exactly remember it fondly. It was slow and unreliable. You could make it freeze/crash with the wrong SOLR query. (I was pretty good at that...)

[masleeds]

The SOLR part has now been retired from the last few releases.

Current development has been focused on improving the flexibility of secondary indexes. There was some funky stuff achieved by some users using overloaded 2i terms and distributed processing of regular expressions against those terms - the aim is now to make this more flexible to the modern developer using the language of projected attributes and filter expressions (ala DynamoDB). There's also some active work to both replicate-to and full-sync (i.e. reconcile with) external OpenSearch clusters.

The primary goal for OpenRiak is stability under load/failure as a K/V store - so the ultra-flexibility of in-built SOLR querying has been sacrificed in the move towards that aim. Anything that can do harm is to be offloaded or constrained.

[encoderer]

Inscrutable erlang stack traces definitely played a part. They were horrible.

[m00x]

Companies would rather use something like dynamodb than self-host riak. You get an army of Amazon code monkeys to help you if something goes wrong, and it's a click away.