[yorwba]

I wonder whether talking about "looking at the javascript console" somehow made them think that this person cannot possibly be blind, since how could a blind person "see" the JavaScript console? (But "having my screen reader read the content of the JavaScript console to me" is a bit of a mouthful.)

[blindgeek]

You know, that's a good point, and it hadn't occurred to me. For the overwhelming majority of blind people, language like "looked at" is just metaphorical. I mean, all language is symbolic anyway. The map is not the territory and the menu is not the dinner. Some of us are taught very young to use common terms like look in that kind of a metaphorical way. Partially so that we fit in and are comfortable with the rest of sighted culture. And then once in a great while, we get condescended to for it. There's a really good example of this in the second season episode of DS9, The Alternate.

``` ODO It was a dilemma for me. I'd never seen anything like these creatures either.

     MORA
   "Seen" isn't really an appropriate 
   description.  He had no eyes per 
   se...

     ODO
   I was only trying to describe it in 
   simple terms...

     MORA
    (ignoring that)
   He had never perceived anything like 
   us before... go on...

```

I can pretty much guarantee that every blind person has had a condescending, patronizing douche canoe like Mora in their life at least once.

[bluGill]

Even as a sighted person, "look at" is often metamorphic - you can interview an expert over the phone and say you looked into the subject even though the only looking was around the phone number.

[lagadu]

When someone recommends me an album or artist I "take a look" at it: I listen to it. Though now that I think about it, I wouldn't say that in my other languages.

[Lerc]

This is how use of language concealed aphantasia for so long. When you use a word in a context similar to how another used it in that context there seems to be a presumption that the subjective experience is the same in that context.

Given how we learn languages and words based upon encountering them in contexts, it makes sense that terms that we use in outwardly similar contexts reflect the subjective experience that each of us relate to those terms. We don't have access to another's subjective experience so I can see how it would encourage the assumption that we all perceive things the same way.

There might be many undetected variances in perception akin to aphantasia lurking in us waiting to be discovered.

[blindgeek]

Here's the thing. We're talking about people who are the accessibility team for hCaptcha. They should at least have a figleaf of an understanding of life for blind people.

The other problem we have is that online companies tend to be accountable to no one. Short of law suits, my friend who got banned from hCaptcha for "not being blind" has no recourse, because nobody is accountable.

[rascul]

Lawsuits are how that's solved in the physical world also.

[pbronez]

I suppose one could say "observed" as a sense-neutral alternative to see / hear. Might be a worthwhile language shift, similar to using "they" as a gender-neutral alternative to "he" and "her".

We usually talk about the inclusion benefits of neutral language. It can also be valuable by making specific terms more meaningful when used appropriately. If I know you usually say "they", then when you choose to say "he" I get more information -- there's a clear gender expression. Similarly, if you usually say "observe", then when you say "see" I know we're specifically talking about vision.

Of course, it's an awkward transition. It's hard to get used to "they/them" and saying "I observed a delicious aroma" sounds like a robot impersonating a person.

[blindgeek]

It's notable that the majority of the people who would be "included" by the change to "more inclusive" language aren't offended in the first place. The sentence "I am watching TV" literally offended no blind person, evah. It is only sighted do-gooders who have the spoons to be offended by nothingburgers on our behalf. We're too busy dealing with stuff like, ... I dunno, landlords who refuse to rent to us because all they have is second story units and we might fall down the stairs. Yes this actually happened to me in 2000 or so, and I don't have enough faith in human intelligence to believe that it isn't happening today. We're too busy being oppressed by captchas and websites made by frontend devs who seem to care more about chasing JavaScript framework du jour than they care about accessibility. We're busy struggling against a built physical environment which has been designed for cars and not people. The supposedly non-inclusive language of "I watched TV" or "I looked at my browser's JS console" aren't even on our radar.

I coined the term "Sapir-Whorf Stalinists" a few weeks ago to describe the sort of people who think that monkeying with language will magically make things better for marginalized groups.

Here's Lee Atwater talking about the Southern Strategy:

> You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, > nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. > So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, > and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, > and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a > byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut > this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, > and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”

[webspinner]

Yes that's my mother.

[RandallBrown]

I'd bet that's exactly what happened.