[tagh]

I agree, the system is very badly designed. Cars and bikes don't mix without carefully designed roads that make the lazy/default decision and the safe decision the same thing, because eventual complacency is human nature.

> You could say that jumping out of a plane without a parachute isn't dangerous, it's the ground that's dangerous.

In that metaphor cars are a force of nature. I've also heard "the laws of physics trump the law of man", and "what's more important: being right or being alive". People choose to drive; people choose to cycle; and people choose to walk. When I choose to drive, I have the means to kill someone else and I'm damn well responsible for that risk. After all, the person I hit didn't choose for me to drive.

[mmooss]

> When I choose to drive, I have the means to kill someone else and I'm damn well responsible for that risk.

I agree, and part of my GP point was, I think almost every driver agrees, even in different words: Drivers are very adverse to hitting humans, whether walking or biking.

[scott_w]

It only takes one to end your life and all you have to do is read Facebook or Twitter comments to see how many harbour a deep fantasy to murder cyclists. Phil Gaimon has done videos describing his experiences, too. If you’d like to experience the difference in person, ride a bike in the U.K. with and without cameras. You’ll see how a marked difference in the space drivers give you. Pick a region with decent enforcement like London or the north east.

I don’t have the inclination to look but I’d put good money on statistics showing a negative correlation between enforcement of driving offences against cyclists and cyclist deaths or injuries.

[Mawr]

You don't want to hit people because you'll feel bad about it? That's good, but you have nothing at stake. You will not be the one dead/injured and the laws are on your side. Drivers have little incentive to care and it shows.

[mmooss]

> you have nothing at stake. You will not be the one dead/injured and the laws are on your side.

Drivers have very much at stake. They could be accused, tried, and possibly convicted of homicide, and even the first two can dramatically change lives. And nobody wants to kill someone, and live with that trauma for the rest of their lives, and always be known as someone who killed.

[paulproteus]

I am honestly not so sure. What's the evidence for this claim?

[mmooss]

Do you see drivers regularly hitting people? You don't think almost anyone would be horrified if they hit a person?

I don't have evidence, but let's not imagine people are the sociopaths they claim to be on the Internet.

[lazyasciiart]

The driver who hit me on my bike didn’t give a shit, and only even came back because a friendly motorcyclist chased and caught him. The driver who hit me on foot also didn’t care, and didn’t have insurance, and had multiple previous violations - and both his parents had hit pedestrians before as well.

[mitthrowaway2]

I do see a lot of drivers opting to buy vehicle designs that entirely and unnecessarily disregard the safety of people outside of the vehicle. And I also note that about 7,000 pedestrians die each year being run over by motorists (in the US alone).

[consteval]

I have a long commute, I see drivers almost kill someone multiple times a day, every day. Most of the time there's no accident.

To be clear, I'm not talking about mistakes. There's 10x more of those. I'm referring to just people taking dangerous actions with no regard for the safety of anyone.

[faer12321]

I see drivers regularly perform dangerous overtakes. They do these stuffs and expect the other person to avoid them instead. To me that is very much not "drivers are very adverse to hitting people".

[mmooss]

Do they understand the danger? I think most drivers, having never been out there, vulnerable, on a bike, don't grasp the risk and the alarm they cause.

[sagarm]

Most drivers are reasonable, but some use their vehicles as weapons to punish cyclists for slowing them down -- even though in SF, you're likely to end up at the same stop light in 30 seconds.

When I bicycle commuted in the city, I had about one incident a week of a driver close passing or cussing me out. In one incident, a driver revved their engine at me and followed me home because I reminded them that they had to give three feet of space when passing. I thought I was going to die when they went for their glovebox. If I ever cycle commute again, it will be with a concealed weapon.

In other contexts, using violence for political ends would be called terrorism. On our roads it's just another day.

[Lio]

YouTube is littered with examples of drivers and their passengers attacking cyclists.

There is a whole industry dedicated to selling cameras and warning radar for cyclists because driver attacks are so common in fact.

Every serious cyclist I know has a few stories. One of mine includes a passenger leaning out of a car trying to put a plastic bag over my head.

Another has a builder stop his van to threaten me with a claw hammer.

These days I have cameras too.

[mmooss]

Youtube and social media have all sorts of things that are badly misrepresented, especially sensationalized paranoid stories. I wouldn't take social media as evidence of anything.

I know plenty of cyclists. While some have had accidents with cars, some drivers have driven away rather than face the consequences, I've never heard these stories of naked aggression. I've heard of the occasional argument, but often a self-righteous cyclist is involved.

[Lio]

There’s a good reason “I’ve heard” is always discounted in court as hearsay.

I know what I know from first hands experience.

I don’t think that anything I could have possibly done could be self-righteous enough to justify the actions of those involved but that’s just my opinion.

[Mawr]

Cars isolate their occupants from the environment. Not just physically, but psychologically - drivers are less aware of their surroundings and unable to communicate with other road users using body language.

I think that is the leading cause of road rage and the disregard drivers have towards pedestrians and cyclists.

[bagels]

Most are. A few are not averse.