[germandiago]

I have been a couple of times in Japan, have some Japanese friends here in Vietnam, where I live. I am spanish.

In my humble opinion, japanese society is very kind and well-behaved, but, if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out.

And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I mean, there is much less difference between foreigners entering Spain, in general terms, and foreigners entering in Japan.

I love Japan, but I am not sure it would be a particularly comfortable place to live since Japanese have a very traditional culture and habits, so being part of the group is not an easy task. In fact, I think you will never be a part of the group as I would understand it in spanish terms, when, for example, an argentinian or a romanian becomes in Spain over time.

The japanese culture is one one of the cultures I admire the most in many aspects: disciplined, orderly... but one thing is that and a very different thing is living there and becoming fully integrated. I think that's tough.

[famahar]

This strong need to be accepted by a whole country is something I see mentioned a lot by a particular group of people that have never really been "othered" in their life. Coming to Japan is quite a shock for them because they experience being a minority for the first time in their lives. I was born in Canada and have dealt with micro-aggresions and blatant racism my whole life there. Living in Japan I can say I feel no strong desire or care to be accepted. I'm not here to win over the acceptance of a country. I live my own life quietly with the small group of strong friends and community that do accept me. I'm perfectly happy and would definitely be much less happy if my goal was to be seen as Japanese (with all the rules that this also entails). Integration to me is simply respecting everyone. There really is no big song and dance needed to be seen as the "accepted foreigner". Just live your life.

[autumnstwilight]

I don't really get why people always say "no matter how long you live in Japan, Japanese people will never truly see you as Japanese." Yeah, okay, but also no matter how long I live in Japan, telling other people from my home country that I'm Japanese now would seem kinda ridiculous and probably not be taken seriously. I don't think of myself as "Japanese". Seems odd to single out Japanese people as uniquely discriminatory here. (Of course, "Japanese" meaning both a nationality and and ethnicity is significant factor here, I might have more complicated feelings if I was of Japanese descent).

I speak the language reasonably well and generally don't feel excluded or disrespected at work or socially. People acknowledge that I'm from a different cultural background because I am. I don't feel the need to "be Japanese".

[j_timberlake]

Meanwhile if you spent 15 years in Canada and got Canadian citizenship, no one would care if you started calling yourself Canadian, unless you're a really bad culture fit.

[autumnstwilight]

I think it would be similar in Australia, where I'm from, but different in any country where "nationality" and "linguistic/cultural/ethnic background" are synonymous for most people. Most of us wouldn't call an American dude living in Thailand for 20 years "a Thai person" either. The "you can't become Japanese" thing often gets held up as an example of unique or unusually strong Japanese xenophobia, and I don't think it's particularly unusual, though we (humans in general) could probably afford to get more precise about our thinking with regard to nationality vs ethnicity.

[enteeentee]

“No matter how long you live in Japan… “ bit more like even if you are born in Japan with a non-Japanese heritage you will never be Japanese.

There are people born in Japan, raised in Japan that aren’t considered ok Japanese. Some don’t consider themselves Japanese because that’s the cultural norm.

Many other people in other countries would consider themselves a citizen of that country if born there. Japan is different.

https://youtu.be/oLt5qSm9U80

[Neonlicht]

Tolerance sounds good on paper but it can so easily become complete and utter indifference. And you should never make the mistake of thinking that it implies respect. I know deeply unhappy expats in Amsterdam who are faced with such an English speaking but very cold and alien society. The globalisation lie is that the world is the same everywhere.

[germandiago]

We were talking about integration. If you are happy more or less ghettoing yourself that is right.

But we were talking about being accepted. It os really difficult to be accepted in japanese circles as one more. But it is not the case, for example, in Spain in comparison.

I was not talking about having the apprpval of others. I do not really care. But in order to get integrated there are cultures that are really flexible, others are more stiff and others it is almost impossible.

[famahar]

All it takes is speaking the language fluently. Hard but this mystery behind integration isn't complex. So much of the culture is expressed through language. Sound native and you will be treated as native (for better and worse)

[PlattypusRex]

There's plenty of small businesses in Japan that straight-up ask you to leave at the door if you look foreign, despite being fluent.

A lot of landlords refuse to rent to any non-Japanese people, despite being fluent.

A xenophobic society won't even let you participate fully, much less integrate, no matter how well you speak the language.

[busterarm]

It's rare but you will still occasionally be denied services in restaurant regardless of how well you speak the language.

Or even if you speak to people in Japanese they will try to speak to you in English.

[germandiago]

I really believe it is not the case. It would go a long way but it is not enough. The ethnicity is also important.

[bluepizza]

Japanese people have trouble being accepted in circles of Japanese people.

[onetokeoverthe]

exactly. the tamade checkout lady saying my hair is kawaii is enough acceptance.

but i wish whoever haunts craigslist japan did not constantly remove my language exchange posts.

[zenel]

strikingly good observation, as another minority Canadian

[cedws]

>And anyway, you will never be a japanese

Well, yes, if you weren't born in Japan or born to Japanese parents, you will never be Japanese. And isn't that fine? I don't understand why somebody who has immigrated to a foreign country must be accepted like a native. Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences?

[watwut]

> Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences?

Their complaint is that they want to integrate entirely and can not. They do not want to be different, they want to be the same. They want their kids to be treated the same. And the claim is, regardless of how well you integrate, how well you speak you will not be fully integrated.

[cedws]

I don't know why this mentality pervades the West - the mentality that as an immigrant you are entitled to be accepted by natives. Just because you speak the language and have stuck around for a while, doesn't make you one of them. There will always be irreconcilable differences.

FWIW I will be moving to Japan next year. I don't care if the Japanese 'accept' me. I don't expect to be treated the same, I know that they're somewhat xenophobic, and some of that might be for good reason. I fully accept that I will be a guest in their country. My goal is to do my best to minimise inconvenience to others and prioritise their cultural norms over mine.

[germandiago]

I am not sure who talked about being entitled to be accepted or complaints.

I just highlighted some facts and compared it to other environments: many japanese do not give a hell about foreigners or interacting with them to the point they are not even interested in learning english and that is ok.

[expatjapan121]

> if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. > And anyway, you will never be a japanese.

I think you answered yourself that if you _can_ speak Japanese, things are different. The reality is that if you can speak Japanese, it's quite easy to be well integrated with the people. In your example, I don't know if the Romanian learned Spanish or everyone is speaking English but there is likely a common language. Making the reason "traditional culture and habits" and just not a lack of a shared language seems wrong to me, at least I feel quite integrated. Please stop telling people "they will never be Japanese" since it's blatantly wrong.

[helboi4]

If you speak Japanese you will have a waaaaaay better time in Japan. But no they will not ever accept you in the same way you could be accepted in a European country. If you're Korean or Chinese you might get away with it with the younger generation. But ethnicity is still a big barrier there. Source - I speak Japanese.

[svara]

> But no they will not ever accept you in the same way you could be accepted in a European country.

I've lived in Japan for many years and speak Japanese alright (disclaimer, that was a long time ago though, in the 90s) and now live in Germany. I travel a lot.

I think what you're saying is directionally correct, but really more of a difference in degree.

For example, I've often seen Asian-Germans being addressed in broken English by older Germans, even though German is their strongest language. Or being complimented on their fluent German. That's got to feel pretty "othering".

And don't tell me the country that just elected mister Trump is as open to the world as is often claimed.

This may all feel completely different if you're around the right group of people, and I imagine that's similar in Japan today, though I haven't been back in a long time.

[mapt]

That is the situation right now.

It's not necessarily going to be the situation forever.

Every demographic crisis involving low birthrates is an immigration melting pot waiting for the population to get desperate enough to change policies.

[sangnoir]

> Every demographic crisis involving low birthrates is an immigration melting pot waiting for the population to get desperate enough to change policies.

Unless people accept the reality that perpetual growth is impossible, and that the economy will shrink as the population does. The UK austerity years provides a decent example of such a "managed decline", albeit with more immigrants, but that's not assured when the next conservative government comes to power.

[thfuran]

Changing policy to admit more immigrants is easy. Changing culture is hard.

[pixl97]

Depends how long they wait. Unless something changes in the next decade areas producing excess population are going to be in demand and they may find it difficult to attract people quickly enough.

[red-iron-pine]

maybe in the west, but asia is pretty racist, and the japanese have resisted until now pretty well. we'll have AI before they'll capitulate for any real migration

[mapt]

"Being pretty racist" is a preference.

One also might have a preference, entering the workforce, to pay less than 80% income tax into retirement & pension schemes, to support three grandparents who are retired and one great-grandparent who is retired.

The ratios for pension schemes, which some criticize as "ponzi schemes", get extremely bleak extremely fast if every generation is half the size. There is an analogous math problem associated with the national economy, with real estate pricing, with everything.

Which preference do you think is going to prevail?

We have pinned our future hopes on population growth, and we are capable of surviving at population stasis, but rapid population decline from the bottom of the population pyramid demands either fully automated luxury communism (the end of the private sector economy as we know it), or replacing retirement and old age with icebergs to fix the top of the population pyramid.

[germandiago]

I am not saying your experience must be the same.

According to the three japanese people in my group here and some other feedback from people living there before, same as you I guess, and they speak japanese quite ok, our conclusion is that being one more is not as easy as in other countries.

I say this from the strictest respect to japanese. I like them, I like their culture.

If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them. A japanese would rarely tell you that. And if someone did, it is likely to do it in an indirect way, as most asians do. Japanese are in the extreme of that polite behavior.

[expatjapan121]

> If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them.

Since this makes a strong assumption on how people "think", I really don't know how to respond to this.

> If you live there you must know perfectly

No I don't.

[germandiago]

If I tell you tgis it is because I have japanese friends who live outside of Japan, who are more open than the average and it is them who tell me: a japanese will not tell you what they are thinking and will not project "negativity" on you.

Said in another way: they will just tell you the positive stuff and will discard negative things. Why? Because for them "projecting negativity" is something plain bad and wrong. This is the reason, for example, why it is almost impossiboe to see a japanese crying in public. That is projecting negativity. They will not go and tell you: "man, how did you comb today you look crazy", even if it is what they are thinking. And like this, millions of things. So maybe you think they are polite or even they like you just bc u dnt get any of this, but observe further: they put distance, they do not make you into their groups except for really formal appointments (business, work), etc. No, it is not easy to get integrated in Japan. It is just not easy.

That they are amazingly polite when dealing with you does not mean you are fully integrated at all.

It means they are polite. Nothing else. If you do not believe me, try to make yourself the person in a group surrounded by japanese. It is very likely, to say it plainly, that you are not just accepted as one more in their circles. For business yes, for close friendship, I doubt it in most cases though this varies a bit in bigger places.

It is really tough.

[expatjapan121]

> try to make yourself the person in a group surrounded by japanese.

I don't need to try to do this, close friendships with Japanese people and integration in social circles where I'm the only non-Japanese has not been hard. The strategy is just not to have your own preconception of outsiderness.

I see many that complain about difficulty integrating similar to your comments, blaming it on something about the Japanese people. But they themselves didn't make the effort to learn the language or make friends in a more casual way, so it just seems like a responsibility deflection. Maybe this is what you mean by it being really tough, but it seems a pretty normal amount of effort when immigrating to me. Pushing this narrative that it's really hard (some of the language even made it sound like implying impossible) doesn't help make it easier since then people get this preconception of being an outsider, and yes that will do a good job of preventing integration.

[germandiago]

I am still pretty sure that, as an outsider, they will just have certain level of integration for you and will leave you apart for other matters.

Not bc they are bad. They are just japanese. It is their way.

[watwut]

What people "think" affects how they act behind your back. Whether they tell you all the information you need or the bare minimum. Whether you get to be picked up for a project or not in situation where there are multiple competing people. Whether you get invited and can become member of an in-group.

Basically, what people euphemism away here is "you get to be slightly discriminated against". In the USA situation, we would say "they are racist against you while keeping it politically correct wherever provable". It has measurable impact.

[germandiago]

I know it sounds bad but as long as it is private stuff you cannot choose what people prefer whether that is discrimination or not.

In fact, if someone does not want me somewhere, I would not need to stay there to like them.

Also, how do you know it is always discrimination? Sometimes it might be but sometimes maybe no. It is a problem without a good solution that I think trying to solve brings further trouble (in these situations, I do not support any kind of legal discrimination, of course).

[watwut]

I am saying it is a thing that exists and it is completely valid to mention it, talk about or complain about it. I am saying the trying to pretend it does not exist or is not something that affects people is just ... lying to yourself and others.

[tokinonagare]

> Please stop telling people "they will never be Japanese" since it's blatantly wrong.

You are wrong here. You will indeed never be Japanese if you haven't both 2 ethnic Japanese parents and raised in Japanese (second-generation raised abroad, for instance in South American are out). You can't rewrite all your DNA and go back in time to have a Japanese education in Japan.

The real issue is why caring so much about "becoming" Japanese? You can integrate in Japanese society as a foreigner, and being treated as an outsider also has its perks. Typically you are not expected to follow some of the rules, and thus has less bullshit to deal with. Just be careful of not becoming too good in Japanese (or at least pretend not to be), so you can maximize the benefits of speaking Japanese while minimizing the expectations.

[germandiago]

I should have been clear. As a spanish, we consider spanish anyone with spanish culture. We do not care that much about the ethnic group. I think that is different from North America, where the ethnic group determines a lot what kind of "american" you are.

That said, when I say "you will never be a japanese" I am not talking ethnic groups. I am saying that even if you speak japanese and try to be japanese, people in Japan will always see you as an outsider. This is not the case, for example, for a black african raised in Spain who speaks spanish perfectly. They just become a fully integrated part of Spain and noone even questions that as long as he adopted the language and culture.

[ranger_danger]

> You are wrong here. You will indeed never be Japanese

I think you are assuming they share the same definition of "Japanese" as you. Even the Japanese government does not agree with your definition.

[germandiago]

I am not tqlking even about nationality but the fact of having access to 100% the same activities, circles, invitations from friends, friendship and so on.

I am not talking in formal terms indeed.

[Aeolun]

I think the OP is correct, though probably not in the way they mean.

I love living in Japan, but I’ll never be able to adopt that mindset, or be able to eat all those disgusting fishes they love.

That’s fine. A lot of Japanese people think it’s valuable to have different perspectives too, even if they could never convince themselves that it’s ok to just walk up to someone and ask them what their problem is.

[expatjapan121]

IIUC you are saying OP is correct in that culture exists in the world. And you are affirming that Japanese people believe this too and are fine with people that don't eat "disgusting fishes", like me (cooked I can't do, sashimi I'm fine).

So the sentiment that somehow Japanese are incompatible for culture reasons, which is the message I got from the thread I replied to, is not correct in your opinion too, right?

[germandiago]

I think you got wrong what I said. I said that becoming part of a group of japanese people where japanese people accept you is more difficult than in other countries.

That is different from going around and just interacting with them, which I found smooth and polite.

If you think that interacting eith japanese at work or shops or restaurants is the same as becoming part of them, well, that is ok, you seem to live there. I think it is more difficult than in other countrues and by this I am not meaning they are bad.

For example, far fewer japanese speak english than other developed countries, which is a trait of ehat they care about.

Also, when working or interacting with japanese myself, I found they follow rules really strictly compared to the "flexibility mindset" that westerners tend to have when solving problems.

They will not go and correct their bosses if they see mistakes because "they will notice themselves". So there is a lot of room to make innocent mistakes when interacting with them and many, face it, are not even that interested beyond a trivial and polite conversation and I am not meaning bad. Every culture has their priorities and taste.

[expatjapan121]

> For example, far fewer japanese speak english than other developed countries

My point was specifically about decoupling culture from language. And notably you didn't clarify about the Romanian who I guess must have spoke Spanish.

Sorry but there are many eastern countries that are considered "developed" while the English speaking population is nothing compared to Western countries like in the Europe. Of course I wish they taught if better to open global opportunities but that doesn't mean anything in terms of culture. It's a language issue and luckily AI is much better at dealing with them than culture.

[germandiago]

Language and culture are intimately tied. You cannot just make them separated things.

You can pretend to do it. In some way it is similar to religion: you can pretend the westerner world has no religion. However, in our conduct and behavior, there is a huge christian remnant.

The same, in some way, happens with languages: the words used, the words that exist in one language and not in another, the connotations a word has... there is lots of culture embedded in a language and when you change language, culture cannot stay the same anymore. It varies bc the culture itself is embedded in languages.

[numpad0]

I kind of suspect it might be worth clarifying what a language is and how it's differentiated from culture. I've heard that honorifics works differently in Korean language e.g. for a supervisor in work situation where one is not expected to use one for his own supervisor in Japanese, while one absolutely is in Korean, and I feel that's more towards culture while also possible to include in grammatical ruleset.

> cooked I can't do, sashimi I'm fine

btw completely understand this. My technical brain says just pure NaCl and pure heat for a whole fish as caught with absolutely no herbs allowed is technically crazy. I hated the brown chiai regions in buri slices growing up. It's crazy that yaki-zakana, literally "roast fish" is one of characteristic dish of the country.