[germandiago]

I am not saying your experience must be the same.

According to the three japanese people in my group here and some other feedback from people living there before, same as you I guess, and they speak japanese quite ok, our conclusion is that being one more is not as easy as in other countries.

I say this from the strictest respect to japanese. I like them, I like their culture.

If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them. A japanese would rarely tell you that. And if someone did, it is likely to do it in an indirect way, as most asians do. Japanese are in the extreme of that polite behavior.

[expatjapan121]

> If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them.

Since this makes a strong assumption on how people "think", I really don't know how to respond to this.

> If you live there you must know perfectly

No I don't.

[germandiago]

If I tell you tgis it is because I have japanese friends who live outside of Japan, who are more open than the average and it is them who tell me: a japanese will not tell you what they are thinking and will not project "negativity" on you.

Said in another way: they will just tell you the positive stuff and will discard negative things. Why? Because for them "projecting negativity" is something plain bad and wrong. This is the reason, for example, why it is almost impossiboe to see a japanese crying in public. That is projecting negativity. They will not go and tell you: "man, how did you comb today you look crazy", even if it is what they are thinking. And like this, millions of things. So maybe you think they are polite or even they like you just bc u dnt get any of this, but observe further: they put distance, they do not make you into their groups except for really formal appointments (business, work), etc. No, it is not easy to get integrated in Japan. It is just not easy.

That they are amazingly polite when dealing with you does not mean you are fully integrated at all.

It means they are polite. Nothing else. If you do not believe me, try to make yourself the person in a group surrounded by japanese. It is very likely, to say it plainly, that you are not just accepted as one more in their circles. For business yes, for close friendship, I doubt it in most cases though this varies a bit in bigger places.

It is really tough.

[expatjapan121]

> try to make yourself the person in a group surrounded by japanese.

I don't need to try to do this, close friendships with Japanese people and integration in social circles where I'm the only non-Japanese has not been hard. The strategy is just not to have your own preconception of outsiderness.

I see many that complain about difficulty integrating similar to your comments, blaming it on something about the Japanese people. But they themselves didn't make the effort to learn the language or make friends in a more casual way, so it just seems like a responsibility deflection. Maybe this is what you mean by it being really tough, but it seems a pretty normal amount of effort when immigrating to me. Pushing this narrative that it's really hard (some of the language even made it sound like implying impossible) doesn't help make it easier since then people get this preconception of being an outsider, and yes that will do a good job of preventing integration.

[germandiago]

I am still pretty sure that, as an outsider, they will just have certain level of integration for you and will leave you apart for other matters.

Not bc they are bad. They are just japanese. It is their way.

[watwut]

What people "think" affects how they act behind your back. Whether they tell you all the information you need or the bare minimum. Whether you get to be picked up for a project or not in situation where there are multiple competing people. Whether you get invited and can become member of an in-group.

Basically, what people euphemism away here is "you get to be slightly discriminated against". In the USA situation, we would say "they are racist against you while keeping it politically correct wherever provable". It has measurable impact.

[germandiago]

I know it sounds bad but as long as it is private stuff you cannot choose what people prefer whether that is discrimination or not.

In fact, if someone does not want me somewhere, I would not need to stay there to like them.

Also, how do you know it is always discrimination? Sometimes it might be but sometimes maybe no. It is a problem without a good solution that I think trying to solve brings further trouble (in these situations, I do not support any kind of legal discrimination, of course).

[watwut]

I am saying it is a thing that exists and it is completely valid to mention it, talk about or complain about it. I am saying the trying to pretend it does not exist or is not something that affects people is just ... lying to yourself and others.

[germandiago]

Yes, I agree. I feel there are comments here from people saying that Japan is great and no problem just because they feel comfortable there but the deep reality is more like your comments IMHO.

Some people might be comfortable like that and it is ok, but that is not what I would call being integrated. I would call it being tolerated.