[egeozcan]

I did write a lot of Java but never called myself a Java developer, and in my current company there are a lot of hardcore Java devs who used to swear by the Spring stack (some even liked JSF!), and a lot of them are moving things to Quarkus (https://quarkus.io/). No idea why, just an observation.

[sagacity]

They are moving there because it's new and shiny, not because it's better.

Spring and Spring Boot are incredibly productive and give you a ton of stuff out of the box, whereas some people actually enjoy writing a lot of plumbing code as a distraction/challenge from boring business code. Those people will migrate to "lean" frameworks because it will give them the opportunity to write more low-level plumbing code.

[ffsm8]

> They are moving there because it's new and shiny, not because it's better.

I highly doubt that.

The real reason is likely more about the GraalVM, which spring hasn't supported until very recently. (And still only with caveats)

[sagacity]

That sort of proves my point, though. Spring support for GraalVM is ongoing and will likely be quite useable and mature out of the box.

The people jumping to Quarkus or Micronaut are more eager to chase the new shiny and are willing to spend the time debugging not-yet-mature stacks.

Edit: To be clear, the reply mentions fanboyism but we are talking about the maturity of a stack. Spring has been around for 20 years and is not going anywhere. Quarkus just reached 5.

[ffsm8]

The GraalVM is significantly more performant. Calling that "chasing the new shiny" redefines the meaning of the expression, which has historically been about side-grades for unclear advantages.

Especially considering that Springs support isn't full yet, and quarkus has been around for 5yrs now.

They're both production ready stacks though, really strange to have spring fanboyism in 2024

[alanfranz]

If Rails is fast enough, I doubt plain old Java on a standard JVM is slower. We’re talking comprehensive and productive web stack, not raw speed, otherwise we go back to the Go and Rust case.

[pjmlp]

JSF can be a great experience when coupled with the right framework like PrimeFaces.

[egeozcan]

My impression after many years of working with JSF: PrimeFaces or not, it's a lot of server-side state making it hard to work on the front-end and an unnecessary burden on the server.

I have also some nice things to say, and I'm not going to make a detailed analysis here but IMHO, it's really not worth the tradeoff.

[pjmlp]

Agreed, and yet the celebration of stuff like Blazor Server, Phoenix, among others show that some folks really like this approach.

Personally the experience with JSF and Web Forms, is what makes me appreciate any framework that exposes the underlying browser stack, instead of pretending it is something it is not.

[alanfranz]

I need to disagree, as I think JSF to be a rather clunky approach, but I admit I never used PrimeFaces.