[anextio]

> You should not care what gender, or anything else, they are - except their ability.

We don't live in that world. Neither do we live in a world where people of color are afforded the same opportunities as white people even though they have all the same rights.

Software (and tech in general) is a toxic and often extremely sexist community towards women. It's easy to take your attitude of "not caring", but that doesn't solve the problem, it simply shuts off the light so that nasty people can do their bidding in the dark.

> I should do that because they are female?

Yes, if it's a freaking thing about women, then they should have the last freaking word. :)

> If people need to see that there are others like them in a community (do they though?), then this module list is exactly right.

This is exactly the sort of blind, toxic attitude that some of us are trying to help destroy. If women who are CPAN authors want to organize a community amongst themselves, then it's up to them to decide how they want to go about doing it. It is NOT up to men to do it for them without consulting or considering the consequences given the continued problems with sexual harassment in the tech community.

[ars]

> We don't live in that world.

Online we do. No one can even tell what gender you are unless you tell them. And why tell them? Why should they care?

> If women who are CPAN authors want to organize a community amongst themselves, then it's up to them to decide how they want to go about doing it. It is NOT up to men to do it for them

To me you sound incredibly sexist. (Men do this, Women do that.) Women have their club, Men have theirs.

Sorry, but I don't divide up the world like you do. Who cares who made the list? Are you saying that if a Woman made that list all is well?

Why does the gender of who made the list matter? Shouldn't the only thing that matters be if the person wants to be on the list?

[anextio]

> If people need to see that there are others like them in a community (do they though?), then this module list is exactly right.

We don't. Especially in the tech community, everyone is assumed to be male by default. There was a post not two days ago by a woman programmer showing that a common complaint among men is that women "don't contribute technical articles". News flash: they do, but the commenters ignore the possibility that an anonymous blogger might be a woman and refer to the author as "he" anyway.

We simply do not live in the world you describe.

> To me you sound incredibly sexist.

Funny how sexists always say that to people who call out sexism.

> Sorry, but I don't divide up the world like you do.

Right, you'd rather completely ignore the issues facing this community.

> Are you saying that if a Woman made that list all is well?

In short, yeah. It's creepy for men to compose a list of 'females' without their consent and make it opt-out.

> Why does the gender of who made the list matter?

Because the tech community is utterly plagued with misogyny, sexual harassment at conferences, and people like you who want to ignore the whole issue in the name of not being told that they can't impose anything they want on a marginalized group.

[ars]

> everyone is assumed to be male by default

Not by me. I make no assumptions on the matter at all, the entire topic never even crosses my mind.

I don't get why gender even matters for these topics. You aren't dating them.

> a common complaint among men is that women "don't contribute technical articles"

This is a common complaint? I've never even noticed the gender of someone contributing an article. Who are these people who tally these things up?

> In short, yeah

And you call me sexist? And how do you know if the author is male or female anyway?

You sound very obsessed with knowing the gender of each person you interact with online.

You are aware that discriminating for women on good things is just as sexist as doing it for bad things, right?

> and refer to the author as "he" anyway

Because that's how English grammar works.

[cloudier]

> Not by me. I make no assumptions on the matter at all, the entire topic never even crosses my mind...This is a common complaint? I've never even noticed the gender of someone contributing an article. Who are these people who tally these things up?

Anextio was pointing out the the tech industry is sexist, not trying to call you in particular sexist. It's cool that you make no assumptions if that's the case (although, to be honest I find that a bit unbelievable since you think the tech industry doesn't suffer from sexism), but that doesn't change the tech industry.

> And you call me sexist? And how do you know if the author is male or female anyway?

There are links (e.g. http://blogs.perl.org/users/steven_haryanto/2012/07/so-appar...) that show that the author is male.

> You are aware that discriminating for women on good things is just as sexist as doing it for bad things, right?

I don't see where you got the idea that anextio was doing anything other than pointing out that women in the tech community don't get the credit they deserve.

> Because that's how English grammar works.

So it's suddenly not sexist to assume that the author of an anonymous blog is male? (Just to clarify: I don't mean sexist as in 'I'm out to systematically repress all women!', I mean the follow-the-leader sexist as in 'it's okay to x because everyone else does it.') 'He', unfortunately, isn't a gender-neutral pronoun.

> I don't get why gender even matters for these topics. You aren't dating them.

So...the gender of another person only matters if you want to get into their pants? It's really quite obvious that you don't respect whichever gender you are not.

Edit: formatting

[ars]

> I find that a bit unbelievable

I find it unbelievable that you (or anyone) pays any attention to the gender of a programmer you only met online.

> that show that the author is male

I searched and couldn't find it. The closest I came is the name on github.

> women in the tech community don't get the credit they deserve.

Why do they deserve credit as women? Who cares if they are women? Give them credit for doing something as a human, not for their gender.

> 'He', unfortunately, isn't a gender-neutral pronoun.

Yes it is. The fact that you think it isn't is a discredit to your education.

> So...the gender of another person only matters if you want to get into their pants?

Or if you want to be close friends with them. Online it makes no difference.

> It's really quite obvious that you don't respect whichever gender you are not.

And yet you can't even tell which it is despite me writing about gender. (And no, I'm not going to tell you.)

I ignore gender for things that have nothing to do with gender. There are plenty of things (including online) where gender matters, but programming isn't one of them.

[cloudier]

> I find it unbelievable that you (or anyone) pays any attention to the gender of a programmer you only met online.

I didn't mean paying conscious attention to the gender - I was thinking of automatic assumptions people make about others. It's natural to make assumptions about people; it's immoral to pretend they don't exist or to object to reducing their effects.

> I searched and couldn't find it. The closest I came is the name on github.

Steven is a masculine name.

> Why do they deserve credit as women? Who cares if they are women? Give them credit for doing something as a human, not for their gender.

I entirely agree, however that doesn't stop people from making incorrect and broad generalisations about groups of people who share characteristics that are entirely out of their control.

> Yes it is. The fact that you think it isn't is a discredit to your education.

'He' is the unmarked pronoun but it's still gendered (i.e. masculine). 'It' isn't gendered, but is also generally used for inanimate objects rather than people.

> And yet you can't even tell which it is despite me writing about gender. (And no, I'm not going to tell you.)

Haha, only because I thought you would get angry if I made any assumptions about who you are.

> I ignore gender for things that have nothing to do with gender. There are plenty of things (including online) where gender matters, but programming isn't one of them.

Like I said before, I think that's cool, even if I find it a bit unbelievable that you don't make assumptions about people you meet online.

[Tichy]

"Software (and tech in general) is a toxic and often extremely sexist community towards women. "

It really isn't. Maybe you get a distorted view because complaints get a disproportionate amount of attention (much like reports about crimes in the newspapers - most people overestimate the amount of crime happening, at least in Europe). Precisely a reason to deal with those complaints in a sensible way, because people like you already got the wrong impression.

[anextio]

I was in denial about it for a long time, like you. I came up with excuses, like you are doing, to explain it away and not have to deal with it.

If it really isn't so much of an issue, then how come so many women are up in arms about it? [0]

[0] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Issues

[Tichy]

There is certainly sexism, but I doubt it is "extremely common", or at least not more common than in other parts of life. Just watch ads on TV - evidently the advertising industry and all their clients are very sexist. That makes every industry.

Why many women complain? I'm no expert, but I would guess (apart from the lack of actual numbers: what percentage of women in IT complain, and what percentage in the average population) there are a couple of reasons. I think some of the issues are issues women face everywhere. Like indecent proposals: is the likelihood higher to get those on a tech event than on other events? But it is easier to point a finger (those IT guys), instead of just "men".

Maybe I can write more tonight, must work now...