Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by de6u99er 605 days ago
Lloks like Microsoft is going back to it's old ways. I am not surprised tbh.
4 comments

Going back?

When did they stop?

There was that bit a few years back where the HN folk saw Satya as the second coming of Microsoft and anything even slightly critical or suspicious of Microsoft was downvoted to oblivion as highly implausible. I think people are still coming down from that high.

He's not the messiah, he's a naughty businessman!

(Note: I shot my HN account then because the majority of the MS stuff on here was utterly intolerable for many of us who have been MS devs/users since day zero and have the mental scarring)

Edit: remind me to post this when MS staff are still asleep next time...

People on HN seem to be either very anti-corporatist or love to white knight big tech

There’s no in between.

the inbetweeners who are here aren't motivated to post about being in-between, which is why it reads that way, unfortunately.
The classic internet engagement bias.
Hey I'm right in the middle: I use a Mac and use open source software on it, while moaning how shitty both are.
Enlightened enough to know that open source is good, but smart enough to realize that it’s a pain.

I’ve embraced the pain and have been using Linux as my daily driver for like 5 years.

Yeah not happening here. I am Adobe and Apple's bitch.

I mean I'd really like to but the software I use just isn't there.

It’s possible to be both critical of Microsoft’s past and also pleased at their last decade of efforts in OSS with things like vscode and typescript.
It’s possible to do both of those and still not trust MS.

I don’t believe that vscode will be this free mostly open editor forever. I’m expecting to see vscode pro or something any day.

Typescript can, very cynically, be seen as an on-ramp for vscode, as vscode has pretty much the best typescript suppor.

Luckily that’s why we have OSS licenses, if/when they do that there will be a community fork.
> if/when they do that there will be a community fork

One would hope, but if all the project’s experts are hired and have been working for a company that closed their once open source project, forks will have a hard time surviving.

That’s why redis and elastic search didn’t see an explosion of popular forks. Terraform has opentofu, but I haven’t looked in on them in a while.

I don’t believe there are any Atom forks around since Microsoft killed that project after aquiring GitHub.

Also, the actual Visual Studio code you download from their website is NOT fully open source. It contains closed source extensions and configurations.

True!
I mean, Microsoft has been very clear about their business model of VSCode -- similar to Chromium, the base product is free and you can do whatever you want (and indeed there are lots of products reusing the core of VSCode), but extension marketplace/remote/GitHub Copilot are proprietary. It sounds like a fair deal to me -- Microsoft can't just do open source without expecting to get something in return.

Now, coming back to private APIs, it's hard to know whether this is because Microsoft intentionally wants to keep competition out, or it is just hard to standardize/finalize APIs. I do know that VSCode development team takes extreme care when it comes to their APIs -- new features can take years before they are ready (most recenly coverage APIs, for example), and they don't want to release something when it's not ready, and I respect that. And to be fair, they have a number of "inline completion" APIs standardized as both VSCode APIs and LSP protocol (upcoming). I'm sure there is a lot to be desired, but it should be a nuanced discussion instead of simply "Microsoft bad".

(I am a VSCode extension & LSP author, not affiliated with Microsoft at all)

Do you have any links or resources you could direct me toward that were more helpful than Microsoft's basic how-to pages for learning VS Code plugin development? I attempted to build a VS Code extension, but the attempt fizzled out. I managed to make some progress in creating the simplest of UI elements and populating them. I'm particularly interested in building a GUI-based editor of JSON / YAML where a user can select a value from a prepopulated dropdown menu, or validating a JSON / YAML file against a custom schema. Any help or advice you could provide would be appreciated!
This. LSP is a great example of something that also takes a while to flesh out because the problem space spans a lot (syntax, autocomplete, etc.)
What's the harm here if the APIs are temporary and they don't have a history of elongating the lives of temporary APIs like this? They've stated the purpose of these "proposed APIs" and we have no evidence from the last decade to believe they'd renege on their stated goals.
> What's the harm here if the APIs are temporary

The “if” is carrying a lot of weight.

It gives Microsoft a solid competitive edge and a form of vendor lock-in in their otherwise mostly open product.

We don’t know that they’ll be temporary forever.

> They've stated the purpose of these "proposed APIs"

Just like how they said recall would not be a required feature, but is a dependency of the file explorer in the next version of windows?

Microsoft will say whatever looks good for them, obviously.

> last decade

But we do from the last 11+ years ;)

I’d always err on the side of not trusting giant monopolistic corporations with a history of garnering good will to cash in on it later.

Especially when that company has been very aggressively inserting itself in nearly every JS projects dependency/software delivery pipelines.

I gain nothing by trusting them, but I stand to lose my project’s independence from them.

The harm is that third-party developers aren't allowed to publish extensions that use "proposed APIs", but Copilot doesn't have to follow these rules because Microsoft both develops the extension and runs the Extension Marketplace website. Microsoft is therefore able to add functionality to their extension that third-party developers can only add by forking VS Code. VS Code forks lose access to the Extension Marketplace, and many Microsoft-published extensions (such as Pylance and LiveShare) will only run on official Microsoft builds of VS Code, not forks.
It worked out so well for them with the browser… oh wait.
IE had over 50% market share for over 10 years. It was likely a major factor for Windows holding the desktop OS monopoly.