[vundercind]

I try every couple years. I tried KDE on Fedora last time (I hate gnome since 3) and could still crash various KDE apps with drag-n-drop operations—I’d trained myself never to use those outside narrow situations on Windows and Linux years ago because they usually broke things or did something stupid, but am now accustomed to them both working and doing something reasonable, so I spot those issues in a hurry when I use other environments now, and no longer accept that as just the way things are. Among other jank and poor stability, that’s just an example.

IIRC making caps another control anywhere I was logged in—not just in KDE—was weirdly hard, too.

Five or six years ago my Ubuntu tv-attached old desktop forgot how to decrypt the root disk its own installer had encrypted, after an OS upgrade.

My Debian server required manual intervention (busting out my rusty Gentoo chroot grub-installing skills) to install its bootloader. The manual version went the same aa usual and had no problems so no clue WTF the installer was trying to do, but it consistently failed, and this was boring, old business-class Lenovo workstation hardware. That was four or five years ago.

Basically when I try to go back I’m missing lots of features and it’s less stable than what I’m now accustomed to, so end up wasting a bunch of time and regretting it.

[aunty_helen]

Hard in this camp too. The OS tinkering that is as requirement of Linux racks up a massive time investment. When you use your computer for work, that bill gets big quick and sometimes it's an inconvenience you just can't afford.

MacOS, for all it's faults, can be tamed with little snitch and a slower update cycle, and then you have a relatively solid system. There's still some things to hate, like when I take my airpods out if I accidentally click one of the buttons Apple Music opens (no one wants to use Apple Music, ever). But, that little frustraition pales in comparison to the build your own experience a poweruser in Linux faces on a weekly basis.

This randomly came front of mind last night when I thought, I can't remember the last time something broke on my laptop. It's been literal months since I've had anything weird or unwanted that I've _had_ to deal with. Contrast that to the last time I tried to daily Linux, about 2 years ago when I bought a framework and couldn't even log in due to trackpad issues, sleep / hibernate issues, screen resizing issues, issues issues issues.

[vundercind]

I have plenty of complaints about Apple’s stuff, but my consistent experience when I try to use something else, for the last decade+, is that I’m jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Even goes for things like Shield vs Apple TV.

I very much wish they had one or more peers putting them under pressure to do better, but the (tiny—which is likely part of the problem) set of competitors seem to have other priorities than chasing the particular market that Apple does.

[smm11]

I switch between OS X and Ubuntu a few times a year, and the only difference is that I have to restart Ubuntu far more often than OS X.

All I run is a browser, text editor and terminal, so functionally it doesn't matter one bit.

[itsoktocry]

>The OS tinkering that is as requirement of Linux racks up a massive time investment.

Huh, strange.

I install Ubuntu as a daily driver on every system in my house and don't have to do any tinkering outside of customizations I want (which I have more freedom to do).

I mean, I understand there are certain proprietary devices or software that are going to require Windows or MacOS, and that's unfortunate. But the idea that everything is breaking all the time? I just don't see it.

[ActorNightly]

I don't get why people still spread the lie that you have to tinker with Linux. Like right now, I can give you a laptop with a clean Linux Mint install, and you never have to touch the terminal for anything system config to do work.

Seriously, its not that hard to say that you prefer MacOS because you like the feel of it. It does a lot of handholding for you, unlike Linux, which makes it way less likely for you to mess something up. You don't have to go the extra lengths to justify it lol.

[mh-]

> I don't get why people still spread the lie that you have to tinker with Linux.

It doesn't feel charitable to call people sharing their experience "spreading the lie". You're all over this thread talking to people that way. If you're trying to make the case that desktop Linux no longer has this characteristic, this isn't the way to go about it.

[justonenote]

That really depends on what type of work you are doing and your specific combo of hardware. And yes you can do work, but when sleep and power management doesn't work it's a significant QoL downgrade.

If you want to use CUDA as a simple example, you'll have to go through the process of using nvidia proprietary drivers and I'm far from well versed on it but that gives me random warnings and I don't quite get the compatibility between it and Xorg/Wayland or which combo to use and I have on more than one laptop ended up with a system that works but that the desktop randomly freezes requiring a hard reboot.

I still do use Linux Desktop and try various different Debian based or Fedora distros out but you definitely do end up tinkering. I don't use MacOS fwiw.

[ActorNightly]

The only issue that I have ever had with drivers is when the ubuntu automatic install defaulted to the latest open source ones which weren't being recognized.

For a whole bunch of other installations, following official linux instructions on Nvidia works incredibly well. Im probably up to like 30 installs of linux mint on laptops and desktops, without issues. I had a personal laptop with manjaro that suppored nvidia prime, I didn't even have to do anything special, just installed nvidia-smi, and prime-run worked out of the box.

And generally, for equal comparison, I wouldn't consider laptops with discrete graphics to be in the same family as more business oriented Macs, the more apt comparison would be those with AMD chips with integrated video drivers, for which you don't need to fuck with any drivers.

[justonenote]

I don't know maybe I've just been unlucky, but at least for me on a couple of different laptops I regularly get full desktop freezes on Debian & Fedora from using things like VMs / GPU accelerated browser (Chrome) / Other things (I don't actually use CUDA/AI much at all but I suspect the issues come from sharing of GPU resources across apps, could be wrong)

This doesn't happen on Windows nearly as much on the same laptops, I don't use Macs that much. And yes I agree it does seem more of an issue with laptops with discrete graphics.

I do still use Linux desktop a lot, I'm happy to take the trade-off but my point was just that depending on the work you do, or the features of the laptop you want to use, like power mgmt or bluetooth, there will be tinkering. (and yes this is entirely manufacturers fault)

[fsflover]

> a couple of different laptops

Just like with Mac and Windows, you should buy a laptop with preinstalled Linux to avoid hardware problems. Even suspend is flawless on my Librem 14.

[godelski]

  > If you want to use CUDA as a simple example,

When was the last time you tried this?

If your "CUDA" needs are pytorch, tensorflow, whatever, pip install (or uv pip install) and you're good to go.

When was the last time you even needed to? If you need to do actual kernel writing and thus actually need CUDA (this is pretty uncommon and I think most people that do that wouldn't be asking this question), then most of the issues are not actually issues.

I'll give an example of my latest CUDA error. I run EndeavourOS (Arch based) and so yes, using bleeding edge drivers. Did an update, reboot, oh no... I get to lock screen, login and black screen (but cursor).[0] What's the solution? Roll back cuda. Didn't work? Roll back kernel. Now it works. The problem? nvidia-560-35.03-9 was incompatible with kernel 6.11. I even was able to find in the forums (quickly) the exact issue[1].

But why am I saying this is no biggie? Well... I'm fucking running 560 drivers, which are beta. If you worry about these issues, don't. If you don't want that power, don't run Arch, Gentoo, or other bleeding edges. You know the most confusing part of this all? Was people posting their driver versions with `inxi -G` and so you only see `560.35.03` but I had to roll back `560.35.03-9` to `560.35.03-6`. But also, Nvidia could be better about their namings.

I will also concede that there is a lot of shit information out there and actually parsing what the real answers are takes experience. So here's my advice when you run into your next issue:

  Getting Information:
  - Start with journalctl and dmesg (try `journalctl -b -p 3` and `dmesg -L -l "err+"`. `-b` is only messages since last boot and the other flags are to only give you errors or worse). These are your "logs" 
    - There are others, and they *should* go under `/var/log` but just like in OSX how random junk goes to {~,/}Library/{Caches,Application Support}
    - Check versions, especially if you did an update
      - (side note): For all those confused where files should go, try `man hier`
  - Good chance you can get through by reading the man page, but this doesn't always apply 
    - also remember you can do `man 7 man` or `man man.7` (replace second man with any command). Also see `man -a man`
    - Don't know what man page you need? Try `man --regex cuda`
  - Visit the Arch Wiki (even if you're not on Arch) -- maybe even the Gentoo Wiki. RedHat docs are also pretty good
    - After that, try your distro's (or their parent's) forums.
      - Archwiki is good, Arch forums are a toxic hellhole occupied by people who's idea of grass is entirely contrived from what is visible on a screen. Use the forums of the children. I'm sorry to those who've experienced that place.
  - Then try Google, focusing on things from your logs. This would be up higher, but you can put quotes around things or dates and Google will outright disrespect you now)
    - If it is a specific program that looks to be the issue, try the Git{Hub,Lab} issues page too. Feel free to open an issue. Most devs are pretty nice, even to noobs, though there are also many who will insinuate you RTFM after quoting and linking to it. I'm also sorry about this.

  Solving issues:
  - First try rolling back. If you're not messing with your system, this can make most problems go away VERY quickly. 
    - If you're on a rolling release distro (like Arch) then this is your goto. Unless you like problem solving. But then why are you on Arch? 
    - With `pacman` this can usually be done quickly with `pacman -U file:///var/cache/pacman/pkg/thing-you-want`. You can use other tools, but this is good to know, and you know where things cache :) (`downgrade` is the common tool but it just does this) You can even do kernels this way!
    - Things like `timeshift` are useful (and the `pacman` or `apt` "autosnap"). But beware if you aren't using `grub` to just not do that option. Also check out `btrfs`
    - If need to reinstall an old kernel and it isn't in your cache check out the command `reinstall-kernels` (try `cat /usr/bin/reinstall-kernels`). This is a uncommon task and might only be because you've filled up `/efi` and deleted a kernel.
  - Stop fucking with the kernel if you don't know what you're doing. 99% of the time this is ***NOT*** the solution[2]
    - For nvidia you might want `nvidia_dr.modeset=1` and ***maybe*** (probably not) `nvidia_drm.fbdev=1`
  - Use `find` and `grep`.
    - I'm not joking, `find` is a crazy powerful tool and people sleep on it. (Seriously, how do people jump into large codebases blind and get running without `find`, `grep`, `awk`, and such tools?)[3]

But honestly, you'll need to do none of this stuff if you're on a "baby" distro. I very much welcome people to become more experienced at linux but not everyone needs to be and there's no issue with using a distro that holds your hand (OSX and Windows do). But I would strongly encourage any programmer (not just linux users) to become more familiar with the cli. There's an investment cost, but you'll reap >10x rewards from these efforts, even in general programming situations.

[0] For the fun of it, I asked GPT and gave it logs from journal and dmesg, it did not get the answer, and listening to it would have sent me down a rabbit hole where I'd be messing with the kernel (I use systemd and dracut, these were communicated to GPT and it was asking me to run mkinitcpio and mess with grub lol)

[1] https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/only-black-screen-after-logi...

And hey look, an update: https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/attention-nvidia-gpu-driver-...

[2] For me `/etc/kernel/cmdline` looks pretty much like `nvme_load=YES nowatchdog rw root=UUID=<that> resume=UUID=<blahh> nvidia_drm.modeset=1 nvidia_drm.fbdev=1` It should be short

[3] Here's a free one for you. Got a python project and you forgot to place `__init__.py` in the folders? `find src -type d -exec touch "{}/__init__.py" \;` (replace `src` with your root source directory)

[justonenote]

Sorry what??

Are you trying to refute my point that you end up tinkering if you are using Linux as a desktop?

I don't want to run bleeding edge, I don't want to compile my OS from source, I did with slackware as a teenager, I just want to play around with SD and other AI models without it causing me to end up with my laptop randomly freezing to a hard reboot until I go down a rabbit hole of driver/kernel/window manger combos.

If I want to do it on Windows it works and I don't get random hard freezes. Trust me I'd prefer to use Linux and do quite a lot but I really don't think you are refuting the point of 'you need to tinker a lot on Linux' with your post.

[godelski]

  > Are you trying to refute my point that you end up tinkering if you are using Linux as a desktop?

Yes and no. Most of my point was about if you're on a tinkering distro like Arch (which the OP is). If you're on Ubuntu, Pop, Mint, or similar you can just not tinker and be totally fine. I did add too much about how to actually problem solve on linux because a lot of people go to the wrong sources and that's one of the biggest barriers to entry (and my frustration with Google).

  > I don't want to run bleeding edge, I don't want to compile my OS from source, I did with slackware as a teenager, I just want to play around with SD and other AI models without it causing me to end up with my laptop randomly freezing to a hard reboot until I go down a rabbit hole of driver/kernel/window manger combos.

Use Pop_OS. You do not need to tinker. Things should work just as smoothly as Windows.

I'm not sure how old you are, but if "teenager" is 19 and you're even just 25, the landscape is completely different. Honestly, I think that's probably a true statement if we're talking about even a 3 year difference.

[aunty_helen]

I’ll put this out there, currently there’s no better platform than macOS on apple silicon for developing ai systems.

I’m not a stranger to Linux or the command line. I own, use, configure servers as part of my business, including the dreaded on metal cuda install. In fact, the terminal integration in macOS is one of the biggest things over windows for me.

But, every time I try linux desktop, for the past 20 years, it’s been a horrible time sink and has driven home the point that building a competent and most importantly consistent gui based os is harder than everyone gives it credit for.

I stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot -sometimes- when trying to wake.

[ActorNightly]

>there’s no better platform than macOS on apple silicon for developing ai systems.

Lmao WHAT?

The ANE system isn't even remotely useful, since is primarily designed for running Apple AI stuff. This is why its integration is so spotty. IIRC, Tinygrad is faster on apple silicon than pytorch at this moment, solely because they did a whole bunch of reverse engineering.

Laptops for ML is just a lost cause as far as matrix multiply is concerned. Nobody is actually doing any serious work on ML stuff on laptops.

>In fact, the terminal integration in macOS is one of the biggest things over windows for me.

Which is funny, because Windows has WSL2 which works incredibly well, has native CUDA integration for ML tasks thats quite good, has an X server that lets you run GUI apps, and is actually linux (not BSD), without anything to get in your way, and its better because its an isolated system that you don't have to worry about bricking and not having a usable computer.

> stopped using Linux mint after installing it on my desktop and having the screen saver require a hard reboot -sometimes- when trying to wake.

The standard argument of "here is a particular bug that doesn't exist on Macs, therefore Macs are better" lol.

Like I said, its not really that difficult to say that you just prefer the Mac OS experience and end it there. You don't have to go on these weird tangents.

[aunty_helen]

>Nobody is actually doing any serious work on ML stuff on laptops.

Was just training a 52gb radiology model. Please point me in the direction of any other platform that can do that for 5k.

>Windows has WSL2

Macos can run VMs too.

>here is a particular bug that doesn't exist on Macs

Yes, my laptop doesn't require a hard reboot after closing the lid. Linux fans won't understand this. If you want more particular bugs, network drivers, amd video cards, trackpad not clicking on the login screen, screen resizing, external monitors via usbc, TweaksUI as a concept. There's no point pretending this isn't a thing, everyone has a story.

As I said, I'm not new here. I've been using linux for 20 years. Linux desktop is garbage no matter the tangent you want to explore. I have 3 developers using windows so know all about developing ai with wsl and the fun problems that come along with that.

[itsoktocry]

>The standard argument of "here is a particular bug that doesn't exist on Macs, therefore Macs are better" lol.

Yeah, this article is literally about an annoying MacOS bug. I use a Mac 8 hours a day for work; it's a great machine, but I bet I'd have 20 glitches and annoyances that I work around, by reflex, all the time.

MacOS is good, but it's certainly not flawless. And if it wasn't for Apple's magnificent hardware, I'm not even sure it's the best.

[ActorNightly]

> And if it wasn't for Apple's magnificent hardware,

I would agree with this sentiment if people said something like "Apple has gotten the hardware right with the current gen, but the intel macs were colossal pieces of shit in both hardware and software".

[pjmlp]

Linux on laptops is lots of fun, last one was getting UEFI to even acknowledge there was anything Linux related on a SSD.

[consteval]

The reason you have to tinker with MacOS and not Linux is because you're fine with how MaxOS is set up. So you waste your time in Linux getting it to behave like MacOS.

Obviously if you go into it with the assumption MacOS is correct and the more like MacOS you are, the better, then Linux distros will fail horribly.

People do this with Windows, too. If you go into it expecting Windows-isms you're gonna be very disappointed. And such "isms" aren't actually good at all - usually they suck. But because you already know them, they aren't "isms" anymore, they're now expectations.

If you go back to the very first few times you used MacOS (or OSX at the time), you'll realize there was a lot of shit that surprised you. You adapted, and in some cases have actually come to PREFER functionality that sucks. And now you expect it, and that's the problem.

[aunty_helen]

I had macos forced on me when I joined a company writing forex software. You’re right, it sucked learning all the different keyboard shortcuts, learning to use an extra modifier key (now one of my favorite things) and just little things like double clicking a file renames it :/

I thought it was crazy using the butter knife (from the meme) to write serious software. Previously I was a windows admin at a 500 computer site and dealt with Microsoft, debugging issues in their kernel. Throughout this time I’ve also use Linux extensively from Ubuntu when it came with pc mags to raspberry pi home security projects to servers and boxes. I even compiled gentoo one time for fun.

I have enough experience to know the differences between all of the operating systems from ‘95 through to 22.04LTS. No, macOS can’t be beaten for desktop experience, except for gaming which is now starting to come around also.

Happy to die on this hill.

[vundercind]

The modifier key choice is (among popular solutions) simply correct. I had twoish decades of Windows/Linux shortcuts in my head so it took a few months to get comfortable with a Mac keyboard, but it’s simply better. The cmd key location is excellent, you can feel how much less strain there is in your hand hitting cmd+c vs ctrl-c, and your fingers aren’t pulled away from the home row. Between that and not conflicting with terminal signal shortcuts, it’s the right way to do it (among common choices, anyway—I’m sure someone out there has some custom solution that’s better).

It’s weirdly hard to get Linux to use that keyboard layout and shortcut set, which is a shame. There’s demand for it, and some attempts to make it happen, but it must be really tough to achieve.

Their default English layout is also easily the best of the major options I’ve seen, as far as simply typing English-language text goes. I don’t get why other platforms don’t clone it and use it for their default. No way it can be covered by patents, I think it’s been mostly the same since before OSX. Linux has one alternative layout that’s close to as good, but never seems to be the default English keyboard, for some reason—you have to know you want it.

[nyarlathotep_]

This ^

I always have at least one Linux machine around that I use primarily, but it's never been reliable. Either Debian or Ubuntu, I always, without fail, have issue with sleep/wake/hibernate and will never bet it'll wake properly when they sleep.

My current Ubuntu desktop with AMD cpu doesn't sleep and has to be manually hibernated.

My HP Dev One laptop with PopOS will fail to wake roughly 1/10 times, requiring a hard reset. Other times it'll fail to sleep and overheat in my backpack. Occasionally, it'll stop recognizing USB peripherals, or the trackpad/keyboard will stop responding to inputs.

I prefer Linux on nearly every front, but having a totally unreliable computing environment makes it a deal-breaker for me.

> "Have you tried $THING"

No I really have grown tired of waking a machine to a blank screen and having to ssh into it to kill gnome or any of the other crap.

My Macs very occasionally freeze on wake too--but that's exceedingly rare compared to the myriad issues with Linux usability.

[TheSkyHasEyes]

Give XFCE a chance.

> That was four or five years ago.

Linux moves way faster than commercial OS IMO.

Reconsider linux. Commercial OS isn't going to 'get better' for IT literate users. :/

[vundercind]

XFCE was my favorite back in my Gentoo days, after I started using laptop hardware fast enough that it wasn’t noticeably slower than my prior favorite, WindowMaker :-)

When I used early Ubuntus on desktop machines (back when Ubuntu wasn’t terrible—before the PulseAudio fiasco and the following series of bad decisions and failed maneuvers against Red Hat) I usually just stuck with the default of Gnome2. That era’s by far the closest I’ve seen Linux get to Just Working.

[edit] FWIW I do find Void with a very-light window manager pleasant to use, but I don’t want to have to self-serve every little feature these days, so it’s pleasant but impractical for my actual life. Nothing short of a full DE, so just KDE or Gnome, with a batteries-included distro, stands a chance of matching what I’m used to just being there and happening for me without my having to ask for it. Unfortunately, I strongly dislike both of those DEs for different reasons. :-/